Looking for thoughts on organic carbon dosing and nitrate

[Crustaceon]

I have no protein skimmer, I do no carbon dosing and - unfortunately I also have no detectable nitrates...

That’s a tough problem to crack unless you’re doing ULNS.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

I have been dosing Plus NP for several weeks now, and the affects of dosing became apparent in about 5 days based on skimmer behavior change. Along with this, My corals seem to be opening even more than they were prior, given the timing, I suspect that this is also due to the carbon dosing.

The product states that nitrates will read 0 as what it adds is not no3 but other forms of nitrogen.

Prior to this dosing, my nitrates would sit around .5 to 1, a couple days into dosing its been absolutely 0. I started dosing a little bit of nitrates back with neo nitro, and what used to get me up to 12ppm nitrates, is no longer enough to read above 0.

Plus NP is not quite the same as carbon dosing considering it adds the nutrients, but according to my logging the nitrate consumption has increased dramatically. Along with this is appears my need for alk dosing has reduced.

This was all apparent at the 5 day mark, dosing the max 1ml per 25 gallons. But may only apply to this product, but I suspect its in line with carbon dosing. Essentially I skipped the rampup most carbon dosing recomends, because this product does not instruct a ramp up. I assume the reason for the lack of instructed ramping of the dose is that the actual risk of starving organisms of nitrogen and phosphate sources is not possible since it adds along with it the appropriate amount of "nutrients" to avoid just that.

 

[Boogieman]

Back when I had a 100g + 20g sump, I dosed around 30ml of vodka daily to get nitrates in check over the course of a few months. I ended up with an 8ml daily maintenance dose after that.



Thank you . It sounds like I still have room to move. Once Randy gives us the answer to the question of where the extra vodka goes maybe I can increase dosing faster.

 

[Borat]

That’s a tough problem to crack unless you’re doing ULNS.

Nah, just a refugium - it takes care of everything.. I have quite a selection of fish (couple of tangs, couple of clowns, couple of wrasses and a coral beauty) - it's not corals only.. Yet no nitrates problems whatsoever- maybe I am lucky..

 

[Sdot]

Nah, just a refugium - it takes care of everything.. I have quite a selection of fish (couple of tangs, couple of clowns, couple of wrasses and a coral beauty) - it's not corals only.. Yet no nitrates problems whatsoever- maybe I am lucky..

I agree with this completely. I have a fuge and a skimmer.... i dose both phosphate and nitrates... many will say its counter productive. I disagree.... completely... Whenever my levels are out of whack (per my goal number or coral appearance) i can dial in any level i want by dosing more or less... the fuge ensures any excess will be reduced in a matter of days.

 

[bushdoc]

Most, but not all of the sources recommend starting carbon dosing slowly and that’s why reduction in nitrates takes time.I did once have transient bacterial bloom after carbon dosing, which freaked me out, so I slowed it down even more. Most of the time there’s no reason why one would like nitrates to drop fast as it causes imbalance and is stressful to corals, so I will continue to dose carbon ( if needed) in slow increments.
Another reason to go slow is fact that once you achieve proper dose, nitrates can drop to zero and phosphates will follow, creating even more problems.

 

[Miami Reef]

It is frequently claimed that it takes a long time (sometimes weeks) for organic carbon dosing to reduce nitrate.

Do folks believe that is true, and if it is, why would it be true?

Are most folks just starting to dose too slowly?

Bacterial number increase is sometimes cited as a reason, but why would it take that long?

If bacterial numbers increase is the reason, then where is the organic carbon going in the meantime? Accumulating? Being used somehow in a way that does not consume nitrate? What way is that?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

I think it’s because of a slow ramp.

 

[I never finish anythi]

I think I am an anomaly to this .. I have been dosing vodka for a few months now i am up to 15 ml per day Also have biopellets.in a fluidized reactor
. Protien Skimmer is not over active at all. I see no reduction in Nitrates or Phosphate . I used to increase 1 ml per week and have recently started increasing 2 ml per week.. tonight when I get home and test I suspect I will need to go up again.

What size tank do you have ? And what is it stocked with ?

 

[Thales]

It is frequently claimed that it takes a long time (sometimes weeks) for organic carbon dosing to reduce nitrate.

Do folks believe that is true, and if it is, why would it be true?

Are most folks just starting to dose too slowly?

Bacterial number increase is sometimes cited as a reason, but why would it take that long?

If bacterial numbers increase is the reason, then where is the organic carbon going in the meantime? Accumulating? Being used somehow in a way that does not consume nitrate? What way is that?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

You can crash nitrate if you dose enough organic carbon and get a bloom. If you don't export the bacteria, the levels come back up. I think the idea of 'go slow' actually took hold around carbon dosing and that most of the 'reasons' why are mind stories.

 

[Boogieman]

What size tank do you have ? And what is it stocked with ?

120 gallon plus 50 gallon sump...

Life rock

Sand bed

Clairsea Filter roller on a seperate pump.

Protien Skimmer,

GFO. Biopellets. Carbon



Fish

Large: Blue, grey and yellow tang .



Small: gramma, goby, chromus, Damsel



3 Hermit crab Halloween, Hawaiian and 1 other

Serpent star

4 inch patch of GSP

1 inch patch of fire and ice Zoa

4- 2 inch anemone when open (carpet style though I don't really know what they are)



Recently added

Small clown fish,

2 Tuxedo urchin

1 Larger multicolor urchin

Dragon torch

Gonapora

Green branching hammer

Jason fox klepto lepto



Tank is a 1.5 years old and i am struggling with brown algea of some kind.



I have dosed Pro Bio S for 12 months



Along with kalkwasser . Alkalinity is about 9.0 for the last 6 months



And about 4 months ago i started micro bacter clean. The micro bacter is noticeablely helping based on required glass cleaning



Nitrates 50 Phosphates 0.27 or higher

 

[Dan_P]

It is frequently claimed that it takes a long time (sometimes weeks) for organic carbon dosing to reduce nitrate.

Do folks believe that is true, and if it is, why would it be true?

Are most folks just starting to dose too slowly?

Bacterial number increase is sometimes cited as a reason, but why would it take that long?

If bacterial numbers increase is the reason, then where is the organic carbon going in the meantime? Accumulating? Being used somehow in a way that does not consume nitrate? What way is that?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

No need to look for a second shooter. Starting too low, taking too long to ramp up the dose, and never reaching a high enough dose to support strong bacteria growth. Also, I think many aquarist quit before the dose is high enough.

I think the problem stems from the popular dosing chart that incorrectly scales the dosing. I pointed this out some time ago and I think you might have published a corrected version.

 

[ReefHunter006]

No need to look for a second shooter. Starting too low, taking too long to ramp up the dose, and never reaching a high enough dose to support strong bacteria growth. Also, I think many aquarist quit before the dose is high enough.

I think the problem stems from the popular dosing chart that incorrectly scales the dosing. I pointed this out some time ago and I think you might have published a corrected version.

So for something like tropic Marin dosing instructions at .25ml per 25ish gallons, what is your suggested dosing? Do you change the amount of your using bio pellets?

I believe biopellets feed a species that isn’t dangerous to the biome of the tank and keep it relatively localized, while I try to use small amounts of carbon to fine tune the nutrient levels. This is probably a fallacy, as I have zero data that is what’s happening but it’s my thought process currently.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Are we looking at carbon dosing in a vacuum? I'm not so sure that the Formula: Carbon + Nitrogen + Phosphate = Bacteria is complete. I suspect there are a bunch of variables that impact its effectiveness. For example:

Are other nutrients needed i.e. iron or maybe iodine?

Are the bacteria that are encouraged by carbon dosing always free floating in the water column or can they be attached to the substrate? If it is the case that the bacteria are attached to some substrate, do the simply cycle N&P during their life cycle rather than being exported?

Does encouraging bacteria to use nitrogen reduce its available to corals and other organisms?

If the bacteria that is encouraged by carbon dosing is free in the water column, is it all susceptible to skimming?

How much of the bacteria encouraged by carbon dosing is consumed by other organisms thus releasing a large portion of the bound N&P? etc.?

 

[ReefGeezer]

Despite my questions above, I do carbon dose a little to provide food and create another nutrient pathway. My 90 gets 20ml of vinegar per day. Nitrate stays at about 10 ppm at this dose but phosphate climbs slowly. If nitrate starts to rise because I'm feeding heavier or because I forgot to dose the vinegar for too long... again..., I double the dose until it hits 10 ppm again. Seems simple enough. I dose LC to reduce phosphate when it gets above .1 ppm.

I don't see a slow response to doubling the dose. I don't mess with it until nitrate hits around 25 ppm, and I can be back at around 10ppm in less than 2 weeks.

 

[Dan_P]

So for something like tropic Marin dosing instructions at .25ml per 25ish gallons, what is your suggested dosing? Do you change the amount of your using bio pellets?

I believe biopellets feed a species that isn’t dangerous to the biome of the tank and keep it relatively localized, while I try to use small amounts of carbon to fine tune the nutrient levels. This is probably a fallacy, as I have zero data that is what’s happening but it’s my thought process currently.

I was refering to the published spreadsheet on vodka dosing that incorrectly scale up dosing for larger systems.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was refering to the published spreadsheet on vodka dosing that incorrectly scale up dosing for larger systems.

Yes, I always thought it ramped to slowly, in addition to the scaling issue. A vinegar version (just a math conversion) crept into an article I co-authored, but I don't agree with it either.

 

[ReefHunter006]

I was refering to the published spreadsheet on vodka dosing that incorrectly scale up dosing for larger systems.

I understood that, I was just curious if you had an opinion on the the products for carbon dosing like those with tropic Marin.

 

[Dan_P]

I understood that, I was just curious if you had an opinion on the the products for carbon dosing like those with tropic Marin.

Oh sorry, misunderstood. I never investigated these products.

 

[SDchris]

Should we expect a different outcome depending on the N source? fish vs sediment.

 

[TheReefPA]

Started with carbon dosing on my 20g system after a month of nitrates in the 20s on my heavily stocked system. Over the course of a week I ramped up quickly to 8ml vinegar with minimal movement. Decided to try my hand at some diy NoPox (50% 5% vinegar/50% Tito’s) starting at 3ml and saw a near immediate response. 2.5 weeks later I’m averaging 10 ppm (average daily decrease of 0.75 ppm). Never had any clouding, just a daily dusting of I’m assuming easily removable bacteria on the glass.

Above makes me wonder if certain systems respond differently to vinegar vs vodka, possibly accounting for how quickly nitrate lowers with dosing.