LFS Fish “Treatment” & The “Sudden” Need for Quarantine

4FordFamily

Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
View Badges
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
20,450
Reaction score
47,597
Location
Carmel, Indiana
Rating - 0%
0   0   0

dreadnaught flasher.jpg

photo by @Dreadnaught

So why is everyone pushing quarantining these days? I do not need to quarantine, my LFS treats fish in copper? I have done this for years without any problems, why now this push? These are common questions I imagine plague many people new to reefing and seasoned veterans of the hobby alike. So what is the deal, anyway?

I do not need to intricately discuss the importance of quarantining, or how to do it. It’s been covered very well in other articles. I do, however, want to address the reason that there are so many quarantine and preventative-treatment cheerleaders throughout Reef2Reef and the reefing community.

thraciandrummer tang.jpg

photo by @Thraciandrummer

Why You Should NEVER Trust An LFS To Quarantine:

Simply put, it’s not economically feasible. LFS, online retailers, and the distribution system are not set up to properly handle disease. Retailers and distributors have several tanks, but they share water with several others for ease of maintenance and to take advantage of economies of scale (assigning costs to a higher volume of fish, thus decreasing the price of each individual fish sold). In addition, several fish are housed together. Due to the sheer number of fish moving in and out of these tanks at various steps from collection to arrival in our homes, the odds of them being exposed to these parasites and infections are VERY high.

sistawolf lfs.JPG

Photo by @Sistawolf
Adding to the confusion, we can see fish that are seemingly healthy at our LFS, or even WYSIWYG online retailers. They are often kept in levels of copper (not fully therapeutic) which can and often do mask symptoms, making it difficult and deceiving when choosing fish for your tank. This effectively provides people a false sense of security. Later, I will discuss what would need to happen at the LFS/retailer level and specifically why this is not possible, but first let’s discuss why this is “suddenly” such a concern.

What Changed? Why Is This Suddenly Such a Big Problem?

I feel that I can honestly say that some 99.9% of all fish purchased from LFS and online retailers are either afflicted with or are carriers of marine ich, velvet, brooklynella, flukes, internal parasites, or infections. Commonly, fish are afflicted by several of these ailments simultaneously. To some degree, this was probably always the case but as time has gone on, people have demanded lower prices for their fish (as consumers do in any competitive industry). This pressure has led the distribution system and LFS to find more ways to cut costs, or risk going out of business. How many of us have seen our favorite LFS/Retailer go out of business over the past 5-10 years? Unfortunately, husbandry has suffered as a result of this pressure. More deadly parasites such as marine velvet are also every bit as common now as marine ich.

expensivehobby tang.jpeg

photo of tang with parasites by @ExpensiveHobby

In addition, our knowledge has grown. We now better understand the life cycle of these parasites. For example, it was “common knowledge” in the past that “all marine tanks had ich” and “stress causes ich”. We have since learned that ich is actually an organism, and it cannot be “caused” by anything other than reproduction any more than you can “cause” your own offspring with an event other than reproduction. Thus, we’ve learned not only is it possible to completely eradicate these parasites and infections from home aquaria, but we’ve also learned how to manage some of them. There are “Ich Management” threads and articles to be found as well.

Ich management is still practiced by some -- I spent a decade utilizing it myself. Unfortunately, things changed and my losses continued to increase. I quickly learned that my livestock choices were very limited to fish that have the capability of building a resistance/immunity to ich. In addition, I lost fish I shouldn’t have, blaming “a weakened fish” from the start. I have far less of that now, with proper QT and treatment. With the growth of velvet, however, “Ich Management” is a far riskier prospect because there is no way to be sure you will not add other parasites that the vast majority of fish will not be able to defend themselves from as they did ich.

The myths that ich is a stress-induced “disease” (rather than an organism/parasite) are also prevalent because of what people witness. For example, a tank fill of fish that have never been quarantined that do not show obvious symptoms of ich can suddenly become dangerously affected with a stress event “trigger”. Things such as heater malfunctions, power outages, tank re-arrangements, tank moves, and a plethora of other things can seemingly “cause” these fish to “get ich” (show obvious symptoms of ich) and even succumb. Once the parasite has become prolific enough through the fish’s compromised immune systems and the sheer numbers of parasites now in the tank as a result, it can become a deadly problem and do so suddenly. Prior, the fish fought off say 95-99% of the parasites so they could not complete their life cycle en masse.

So What Would Need To Happen to Properly Treat Fish at LFS Level?

An LFS/retailer would have to hold on to fish for at least 30 days with Humblefish’s protocol, or keep a single fish (or batch of fish) in a closed system (a single tank) in therapeutic levels of copper or CP for a full 30 days, with 14 days observation afterward. Copper levels would require daily testing to ensure that they did not dip below the therapeutic range, or the needed 30 day clock would restart because the parasite would be able to complete its life cycle. In addition, after each batch of fish, the LFS would have to completely sterilize each individual quarantine after all of the fish from the last batch were sold, and start over. As we know, they’d need to somehow seed each new quarantine with bacteria to kick start the nitrogen cycle and do large water changes to prevent ammonia from killing the next batch until this occurred -- for every batch. This is exponentially more large water changes and cost. Factor in the cost of all of the medications, individual plumbing and filtration, test kits, personnel/salaries to complete all of these tasks, the opportunity cost of having tanks/systems tied up until the last batch has sold, and the inability to sell a fish for 30-45 days upon arrival at a minimum – you discover why this does not happen. To name a few more costs/challenges, you would have to be sure to properly sterilize equipment, or have designated nets/equipment for each tank. Individual tanks must be placed 10 feet away from one another to prevent aerosol transmission of ich. If an employee dips his or her arm in one tank, and then in to another before properly sterilizing the entire arm and letting it dry, it undermines the entire process (I have learned this the hard way many times). We are also not factoring in that every day a fish remains at an LFS increases the risk of “shrinkage” (fish losses, in this case). So if they typically sell a fish in an average of 5-10 days and it takes 30-45 days to even get the fish available for sale, the risks of fish dying increases significantly (you cannot sell a dead fish). So now, you have to account for that in your pricing, as well.

So, in short, costs grow by several orders of magnitude (so fish prices would likely AT LEAST double), but now you also bring in less revenue. I’ve oversimplified several things to discuss this, and I’ve left a lot of things out so as not to bore. To summarize, do not expect or trust any LFS or retailer to properly quarantine and treat your fish so that they are safe to dump directly in to your tank. They cannot logistically and economically do so and remain profitable. The only person I know that has a chance would be our very own Humblefish, as he is working on his own idea to do just this very thing. He’s spent years planning and researching, and it won’t be an easy road. He intricately knows and understands the life cycles of these parasites, and what treatments are needed, what order they need to be administered, and how to do this effectively. Still, many of these issues will create bottlenecks to account for.

Happy Reefing!

triggreef pbt.jpg

photo of healthy powder blue tang by @Triggreef
 

ngoodermuth

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
5,217
Reaction score
12,401
Location
York, PA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Great write-up, I hope we gain more cheerleaders for proper QT protocols from it! Think of it, the more people who properly QT and practice eradication vs. management, the less likely those who don't QT corals (I was one of them until very recently) will end up with an unwanted hitchhiker parasite as well. Eventually, perhaps the coral QT portion of this dilemma could be obsolete(at least from other hobbyists)! A girl can dream right?
 

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
22,488
Reaction score
61,061
Location
Decatur, AL
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Very well said!

I would add on thought. If a LFS even gets one fish with Velvet in their DT system that store will always have Velvet in their system unless they either stop stocking and selling fish for 6 weeks or they break down and sterilize the entire system.
It is much easier and cheaper to add low levels of copper or drop salinity to less than 1.018 to mask symptoms than to fix the underlying infestation. Has anyone wondered why inverts are kept in coral tanks now instead of with the fish? If your LFS has healthy looking fish in tanks that also have inverts you should feel lucky!
 
OP
OP
4FordFamily

4FordFamily

Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
View Badges
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
20,450
Reaction score
47,597
Location
Carmel, Indiana
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Very well said!

I would add on thought. If a LFS even gets one fish with Velvet in their DT system that store will always have Velvet in their system unless they either stop stocking and selling fish for 6 weeks or they break down and sterilize the entire system.
It is much easier and cheaper to add low levels of copper or drop salinity to less than 1.018 to mask symptoms than to fix the underlying infestation. Has anyone wondered why inverts are kept in coral tanks now instead of with the fish? If your LFS has healthy looking fish in tanks that also have inverts you should feel lucky!
Very good point! Thanks you!

I have been thinking about this article for awhile now, I think it ties a lot of common questions and concepts together and explains why we do what we do.

Thanks Ngoodermuth, too!
 

revhtree

Owner Administrator
View Badges
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
49,225
Reaction score
98,068
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Very good bro! Thank you for sharing!
 

borrowedlight

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
36
Reaction score
26
Location
NC
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Very informative read. My LFS tells me not to mix their water with my tank water because it contains copper so I have been under the impression the chances of bringing home a diseased fish are minimal. I definitely have a different mindset now as it makes since that therapeutic levels of copper treatment would not be realistic in a retail setting. Thanks for sharing this info.
 
OP
OP
4FordFamily

4FordFamily

Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
View Badges
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
20,450
Reaction score
47,597
Location
Carmel, Indiana
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Very informative read. My LFS tells me not to mix their water with my tank water because it contains copper so I have been under the impression the chances of bringing home a diseased fish are minimal. I definitely have a different mindset now as it makes since that therapeutic levels of copper treatment would not be realistic in a retail setting. Thanks for sharing this info.
Glad you found it helpful! Low levels of copper keep parasites in low numbers but the infestation always remains and the fish will carry the parasite. Without low levels of copper to suppress infestation in your display tank, that fish will often quickly succumb because the parasite has fed on its gills in low numbers and been present for some time.
 

HappyNewReefer

New Member
View Badges
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
5
Reaction score
6
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Thanks for your excellent article!

So what's the smallest quarantine tank set up that you recommend? And do I set it up exactly like the display tank or are there some things I leave out?
 

Maritimer

7500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
7,560
Reaction score
13,636
Location
SouthWestern Connecticut
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Excellent, timely and well thought-out, @4FordFamily! Thanks for highlighting the issue!

HappyNewReefer, you'll want to set your quarantine (size depends on what type and how many fish you plan on housing in it - ten gallons is more than sufficient for a royal gramma, but if you want to QT a tang, a 20-long is probably minimum.) a little differently from your display. No liverock or sand (maybe a small bowl of sand if your QTing a sand-sleeping wrasse), bare-bottom and using PVC pipe fittings for hiding places. Keep a lid on it, 'cause some fish jump. (Almost all fish _can_...)

~Bruce
 
OP
OP
4FordFamily

4FordFamily

Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
View Badges
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
20,450
Reaction score
47,597
Location
Carmel, Indiana
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Thanks for your excellent article!

So what's the smallest quarantine tank set up that you recommend? And do I set it up exactly like the display tank or are there some things I leave out?
20 gal for one or two fish or a few smaller ones. I use a 55. Keep in mind, too, that the larger the qt the more meds that are required.
 

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
22,488
Reaction score
61,061
Location
Decatur, AL
Rating - 0%
0   0   0

mcarroll

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 8, 2012
Messages
13,802
Reaction score
7,989
Location
Virginia
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
So what's the smallest quarantine tank set up that you recommend? And do I set it up exactly like the display tank or are there some things I leave out?
  • I'd say 10g is too small for all but the smallest fish you'll find for sale. If you have a small tank, that might be OK.
  • If you plan to keep medium sized fish, I'd go no smaller than a 15L or 20L.
  • 20L or bigger if you have a large tank – something like a 40B or 50 Gallon would be much more ideal.
For an alternate view, I like the advice on this topic from the sticky in our main fish forum:
Quarantine tanks
 
OP
OP
4FordFamily

4FordFamily

Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
View Badges
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
20,450
Reaction score
47,597
Location
Carmel, Indiana
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I have never quarantined my fish because I'm new to the hobby and didn't know better. I have 6 fish now. Should I remove them all from my DT and treat with copper for 30 days or is it too late now?
If things aren't a problem yet, I would wait. It will happen, though. I would buy and ready a quarantine for when you need it, however. It'll improve the odds of our fish pulling though! :)
 

Eva Rose

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 23, 2016
Messages
860
Reaction score
1,314
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Well written article that addresses many misconceptions! This will encourage many hobbyists to avoid heartache from losing fish and their investments. Learning how to properly quarantine increases confidence in medicating your fish and getting finicky species to eat! Great job!!
 
OP
OP
4FordFamily

4FordFamily

Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
View Badges
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
20,450
Reaction score
47,597
Location
Carmel, Indiana
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Well written article that addresses many misconceptions! This will encourage many hobbyists to avoid heartache from losing fish and their investments. Learning how to properly quarantine increases confidence in medicating your fish and getting finicky species to eat! Great job!!
Thanks, Eva! :)
 

Wiz

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 1, 2014
Messages
4,317
Reaction score
2,644
Location
Allenstown nh
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Great read! Logically it has never made sense to me that a fish store would quarantine. I am ridiculously skeptical when they claim to have had a fish for more than a week or two. I frequent many fish stores in my area. And even some that are a bit far. My obsession carries me. LOL my wife and I comment all the time about how they must lose their love for the hobby. Most of the time they cannot even be bothered to remove dead fish. :(
Even if they did quarantine, the old adage would still be true. If you would like something done right do it yourself.
 
Back
Top