LFS: “Local Fish Shop” Or “Lying For Sales?!” Is Your Store Legit?

[revhtree]

LFS: “Local Fish Shop” Or “Lying For Sales?!” Is Your Store Legit?

What is the most common reason for giving up the salt water hobby? When you search through the endless listings of reef tanks for sale on Craigslist, the majority of tanks are not exactly top of the line. Someone will label “Full Blown Reef” on a tank that is nothing more than a fraction of what the educated reefer would even consider putting animals in. The lighting is outdated, they are usually not drilled, the ones with sumps have old overflow boxes filled with algae, and the fish have three eyes! Maybe they are not that bad, but the point is that these “Minimal Marine Masterpieces” are a product of bad information or a lack of it which results in the tank’s owner having issues to the point of giving up. A reef tank should never be a short term project. These people did not intend to have so many problems or to ever quit reefing so where do these new hobbyists go for this information that leads to failure? The Pet Store is like a library to the animal hobbyist. We rely on a local source for care and information. If the information is wrong than we will have a horrible time! So how do you know how to look for shams at your local fish store?

TEST THEM!

Test 1: Sell Me Friends or Foes?

Go check out the fish they have and write down the names. Go to your handy smart phone and check out the compatibility of their livestock on your preferred internet browser. Now rewrite your list so you have fish grouped together that are completely incompatible and go back to the pet store. When they ask you what you want just ask them about your fish list and see what they say.

A) They should say that the fish are not recommended tank mates and refuse to sell them without knowing you have multiple systems. This is a sign of a good place to shop.

B) They go ahead and start preparing to catch the fish on your list, no questions asked. This is not acceptable and should be considered animal cruelty, or at least customer cruelty. How many of you have spent hours, days, months even, trying to catch that “nice” Damsel from Snidely Wiplash’s Pet store? If this is the case, learn about the animals before you buy them online. Reef2Reef has all the answers to any fish you want in the FISH FORUM or the FISH COMPATIBILITY CHART

Test 2: Set Me Up To Fail or Prevail?

For a business to run they must make money. The coral business relies on hobbyist’s abilities to keep these animals for long periods of time, and so does the ocean! Without the home aquarium there would not be a need for an aquarium store, so your aquarium is a very important piece in the scheme of things. This test is to determine if the store is going to set you up for success or drain your wallet on things they don’t even use on their own systems. Pick a moderate sized aquarium and have them design the perfect setup. Act clueless, even if you are! These tests are free. Give them the opportunity to take complete advantage of your ignorance. Flash a credit card around every once in a while in attempt to trigger their sales person juices. Make sure to be taking notes, or have them give you a detailed list of all the parts and take it back home. If you have a good knowledge already you may know if you were bamboozled or not. If you are still new to the hobby just log on to Reef2Reef and post your findings. You will quickly get responses and opinions from people who know their stuff. Again, if they are pumping you full of useless equipment and things you will have to upgrade or even delete then it is time to rely on outside sources for your information. If the general consensus is positive then give your store owner a nice big pat on the back.

assorted coral image via reef2reef member @blaten

Test 3: What That Is?

Ask, ask, ask away! These businesses have the means to know what they are selling. Ask them what that is! Ask them what that is! Hey, that is cool! What is that? A good salesperson will not only know what that is, but also how to care for it and what can and cannot live near or around it. If you have an LFS that has a single tank labeled “Assorted Corals $20” then they probably have more problems on their plate than labeling coral and fish. Most “assorted” pet stores get corals in bulk with no control over what comes in their boxes. Rather than be a trend setter and stocking the flashy stuff, they chose the cheap route and brown out. This makes for a boring reef. The rock should not be more colorful than the corals!

Test 4: Hold Me or Hang Me?

Will your LFS hold livestock for you when you can’t take it home that day? This is often an issue when buying new fish since not everyone has a constantly running quarantine tank. The store should not have an issue holding onto your livestock while you prepare for a new friend. They also should not have a problem replacing your animal-on-hold if it dies in their captivity. It would be wise to investigate the cause of death at this point though. A good LFS still has a decent casualty rate, generally caused by transport. If the place won’t hold things for you then that is another sign of a greedy business.

Test 5: Products that Work or Products that Profit?

Take a few problems with you to the store. Ask them how they would solve them. If you have a light burn out and they recommend a less powerful one then you might not want to copy off their physics homework. If they recommend things like “Reef Safe” Ich cures then you also know they just want your money. There is an endless amount of additives, low quality-high cost, pointless, and even harmful products that are pushed on less informed customers. Always double check what they try to sell you before you actually dump liquid nitrogen into your fish bowl. Not all products work, but not all products wreak of money.

Test 6: Choke my Fish!

Pick up a bag of sand and ask them to get you a fish. If they hesitate and ask what you plan on doing with the sand you can feel at ease. They do care. If they go ahead and start to catch the fish just make them stop. Kindly inform them that you should never add new sand and fish at the same time. In the ocean they have all kinds of sand storms but they are easily avoidable. In a tank, the fish has no choice but to wait it out and breath the dusty water until it finally clears. It may live, but would you want sand in your snorkel?

Back to the original question, what is the most common reason for giving up the salt water hobby? Greedy Pet Stores!!! The aquarium industry is not like any other type of business. Some places do it purely out of love for the hobby while others will not think twice before sending you home with a dozen shark eggs and a brand new top of the line canister filter for your pico reef. It is up to you to be the judge. Try these tests on a few places around you. Remember, not all employees are experts. Try to limit the criticism to those who claim they are the house guru and see if they are worthy of asking for real help later. If your LFS fails the test that does not necessarily mean you should not buy from them. They may have great prices, healthy livestock, and even a few rarities popping up in their “assorted” tanks, though you may never be able to rely on them for an honest answer. If you know of places that take advantage of people and set them up for failure do your best to make local hobbyists aware of this problem. Reefers have an unnecessarily bad reputation with animal-rights activists. We cannot let greed get in the way of passion. We are also sometimes limited to these places and must learn how to buy from them and not for them. Check out the entirety of Reef2Reef to become the ultimate customer!

 

[Shadow1]

I drive 90 miles one way passig one LFS within 5 blocks of my house. The LFS I use is the one who on the first visit told a customer "NO you cannot buy that Trigger it will not work in your tank" This was my first experience as I was getting back into the Hobby after close to 20 years out and not sure what all the new gadgets were about.
The owner and his son 2nd and 3rd generation owners ar great, they know their customers systems almost as well as their own. I have time and again seen them refuse to sell and admire their persistance.
The one I refuse to buy from.....never mind if I need it that bad I'll go to Petco..LOL

 

[bairdimusprime]

great article!! I would drive 45 mins to an hour to go to one particular store for these very reasons.. this is a must read for any new members

 

[bucksfan1976]

Here is one of the things I do NOT like about LFS, NONE OF THEM QT Their fish before selling, I wish I could have a retail store I would outsell everyone just for this reason.

Its funny because they post Fish order arriving tonight (thursday ) Ready for the weekend. From calculations from people there is about s 65% death rate. If a store would take the time and have a full QT system and QT the fish for 6 weeks. I would drive long distances for this kind of quality instead of taking a gamble. Plus some people cant have large QT tanks , what if you wanted to buy a Show Size naso, you cant qt it for 6 weeks in a 30 gallon tank.

 

[Marquiseo]

Well it's 60% LFS and 40% new hobbyist fault. LFS shouldn't sell items to customers based on wanting to make a sell but they do have to make sales to remain a business long. On the other hand, keeping a saltwater aquarium isn't cheap, why would someone make a commitment to something without doing a little research on it. In this hobby, searching one topic on the internet leads to another beneficial topic. When people buy other items from the store(non-hobby related) they tend to research the items as far as best prices, how it works, etc.

 

[Rob&Gab]

i no quite a few stores like this where im from and its sickaning. too many people are only in it for the money and not in it for the hobby and love of fish and creatures. .. so sad. great just read the whole thing. nice find REV>!

 

[jedidad]

While it would be nice if every LFS QT'd their fish for six weeks it just isn't economically feasible for them. The LFS I use won't sell any fish for a couple days to make sure they are at least eating and will not sell any fish that doesn't appear healthy. This is more than I can say for most LFS in my area. For him to QT and treat every fish that comes through his door would be incredibly expensive. It has always been understood that the customer should QT their own fish before putting in their display and I don't see a problem with this.

 

[Rockadile]

couple things here, QTing fish at the lfs often happens in the display tanks that are treated with copper, space is a premium and to have dedicated QT systems just is not always feasible.

Holding fish is another ball game. Customer comes in and wants to put a fish on hold, no problem so the fish gets tagged as on hold. Now how long do you hold said fish? 15 people have showed interest in said fish in the last week or 2 but its on hold. Fish ends up dieing while at the store now needs replaced at the stores expense of course to only be put on hold again? I dont think so. Fish have a much higher survival probability in a display tank in someones home then at the fish store where they may be over crowded and or stressed. Sell the **** fish when there is a buyer. This not only gives the fish the best possible chance of survival but it also helps the LFS move product and stay in business.

 

[eyesinthedrk]

I would love to take the high road with you all. But I can't. The fact is that most LFS's in areas outside of a major city, can not survive on dedicated hobbyists alone. The rise of the garage vendor makes that even more difficult for the brick and mortar LFS. As someone who gives advice to the truly lost saltwater hopefuls on a different board. I can say for a fact that the vast majority of people wanting to start a tank have no desire to listen to facts. They don't want to learn how start and maintain a reef. They want to be told that they can put Nemo and dory in a ten gallon with a penguin filter. And often give best answer to the guy who says "yes you can, my brother did it."

Another point we often forget in our LFS hate threads is that asking some minimum wage high school kid to know how to run a reef tank is like asking culinary tips from the drive through attendant at Mc Donald's. Sure some have some passion and knowledge about marine aquaria. Most however, are hoping they have enough on their next check to go on a date after they pay their parents for their car insurance.

Finally the ugly truth that few want to admit. Profits are everything and they benefit you as much as the LFS. The "Nemo Effect" killed millions of fish. It also sold a lot of equipment. We all gained from the profits generated in fish destined for death. It fed R&D, lowered costs, and encouraged more diverse collection. It also inspired a few now dedicated reefers with a passion for our hobby. Without turnover, none of that will happen.

 

[revhtree]

I would love to take the high road with you all. But I can't. The fact is that most LFS's in areas outside of a major city, can not survive on dedicated hobbyists alone. The rise of the garage vendor makes that even more difficult for the brick and mortar LFS. As someone who gives advice to the truly lost saltwater hopefuls on a different board. I can say for a fact that the vast majority of people wanting to start a tank have no desire to listen to facts. They don't want to learn how start and maintain a reef. They want to be told that they can put Nemo and dory in a ten gallon with a penguin filter. And often give best answer to the guy who says "yes you can, my brother did it."

Another point we often forget in our LFS hate threads is that asking some minimum wage high school kid to know how to run a reef tank is like asking culinary tips from the drive through attendant at Mc Donald's. Sure some have some passion and knowledge about marine aquaria. Most however, are hoping they have enough on their next check to go on a date after they pay their parents for their car insurance.

Finally the ugly truth that few want to admit. Profits are everything and they benefit you as much as the LFS. The "Nemo Effect" killed millions of fish. It also sold a lot of equipment. We all gained from the profits generated in fish destined for death. It fed R&D, lowered costs, and encouraged more diverse collection. It also inspired a few now dedicated reefers with a passion for our hobby. Without turnover, none of that will happen.

Hello and welcome to R2R!

We appreciate your membership!

Thanks for joining and please make sure and post often!

 

[AHDOnline]

While some of that is good, it seems to be written by someone that has not ran/owned a fish store. I support most of the items, but for one we do not normally hold fish. It causes two problems 1> Sometimes the customer delays and I am required to feed and maintain this fish at my cost. 2> Once a fish goes on hold EVERYONE wants it..

Something that also comes from these articles is some people come into the store to "Test" your employees. Some of the questions are so ridiculous that very few people would actually know the answer and then they post that you don't know what you are talking about. The importance is that the LFS doesnt make up an answer and is smart enough to ask you to wait while they research it.

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]To comment on the Compatibility most everyone uses a phone to look it up but that doesnt mean it will make them not want it. Some fish types are not all the same fish to fish, and while I do not carry a encyclopedia of compatibility even if I say it is and it attacks your fish doesnt make me always wrong.[/FONT]

 

[robbrouse]

I would love to take the high road with you all. But I can't. The fact is that most LFS's in areas outside of a major city, can not survive on dedicated hobbyists alone. The rise of the garage vendor makes that even more difficult for the brick and mortar LFS. As someone who gives advice to the truly lost saltwater hopefuls on a different board. I can say for a fact that the vast majority of people wanting to start a tank have no desire to listen to facts. They don't want to learn how start and maintain a reef. They want to be told that they can put Nemo and dory in a ten gallon with a penguin filter. And often give best answer to the guy who says "yes you can, my brother did it."

Another point we often forget in our LFS hate threads is that asking some minimum wage high school kid to know how to run a reef tank is like asking culinary tips from the drive through attendant at Mc Donald's. Sure some have some passion and knowledge about marine aquaria. Most however, are hoping they have enough on their next check to go on a date after they pay their parents for their car insurance.

Finally the ugly truth that few want to admit. Profits are everything and they benefit you as much as the LFS. The "Nemo Effect" killed millions of fish. It also sold a lot of equipment. We all gained from the profits generated in fish destined for death. It fed R&D, lowered costs, and encouraged more diverse collection. It also inspired a few now dedicated reefers with a passion for our hobby. Without turnover, none of that will happen.

This is the cold hard truth. The LFS can't make it off the sale of fish alone they make it of dry goods. The internet has all but driving all the good LFS our of business. They can't compete with Big Al, Doctor Fosters or Marine Depot. I know a few of the mom and pop store owners and they try to do there best but someone walks in ask for advice on a skimmer and orders it off line cheaper. I've done it.

Anyhow maybe we should try to put our self in the LFS shoes. If they don't make enough money to pay the bills they are gone.

 

[Eienna]

I LOVE Deep Sea Creations in Temecula, CA. If a fish is ill they will treat it, and their advice is almost always good. They also QT their fish unless said fish comes from a customer who has had a healthy tank with no new additions for a reasonably long time. Their tanks are also clean, and they provide their livestock with a good assortment of foods. They also catch their fish with a clear box rather than a net.

Given a choice, I'd pick these guys every time.

Edit: Oh, and I can't remember EVER seeing a dead fish in their tanks, or anything obviously incompatible living in the same tank together.

 

[capchad03]

I think a lot is the LFS get tired of people only coming in to get info and never buy anything. If they would just be honest and act like they cared they would have a loyal customer and not have to "sell" you anything it would just come because if how they treat you. The only LFS have never tried to sell me anything and yet I've spent god know how much with them already! Lol.

 

[ebushrow]

I would love to take the high road with you all. But I can't. The fact is that most LFS's in areas outside of a major city, can not survive on dedicated hobbyists alone. The rise of the garage vendor makes that even more difficult for the brick and mortar LFS. As someone who gives advice to the truly lost saltwater hopefuls on a different board. I can say for a fact that the vast majority of people wanting to start a tank have no desire to listen to facts. They don't want to learn how start and maintain a reef. They want to be told that they can put Nemo and dory in a ten gallon with a penguin filter. And often give best answer to the guy who says "yes you can, my brother did it."

Another point we often forget in our LFS hate threads is that asking some minimum wage high school kid to know how to run a reef tank is like asking culinary tips from the drive through attendant at Mc Donald's. Sure some have some passion and knowledge about marine aquaria. Most however, are hoping they have enough on their next check to go on a date after they pay their parents for their car insurance.

Finally the ugly truth that few want to admit. Profits are everything and they benefit you as much as the LFS. The "Nemo Effect" killed millions of fish. It also sold a lot of equipment. We all gained from the profits generated in fish destined for death. It fed R&D, lowered costs, and encouraged more diverse collection. It also inspired a few now dedicated reefers with a passion for our hobby. Without turnover, none of that will happen.

How I agree with much of what is said here, point #2 is just not a " but we can't get good help" is just an excuse. The reason the unqualified are hired is because they are cheap to pay. I realize everything cost money and that overhead is brutal, however, I bet most people would shop at stores with qualified people running the floor and not people who don't know what they are doing. It's worth it to me to have the experts there to support the customer before, during, and after the sale at a store like that. The reason I think a lot of people do the online or " garage" fish stores is just this fact, they have no support before they buy or after they buy...so the cheaper I can get it the better.
Now I am not bashing the LFS but this is clearly why I only go to one store far from my house, and if they don't have it I buy it online. I will buy my dry goods from them if they have what I need first, but with profit margins so low on dry goods most stores cant keep things on the shelf for the " just in case John Doe needs it" so I sometimes have to buy it online. In this business it appears to be a go big or go home, there's no room for the little mom n pop shops... I am not saying I agree with it but the perception is there for a lot of folks, and with bad employees or bad advice at many LFS, many have gone to online where they may not get support for their purchases, but they get a guarantee on their purchase and depend on advice from forums like these.

 

[vetteguy53081]

V E R Y Well written as these things DO happen. I owned a Pet Store for Many years and heard/seen what happened to hobbyists!!

 

[mcarroll]

If you've got a bad one that deserves it, fine - be specific. I'm tired of people bashing local fish stores. "Greedy pet stores" indeed.

It's old.

Yes, LFS prices are higher.
:deadhorse:

Yes, they have more costs because they are doing more and bring everything to a showroom near you.
:deadhorse:

No, you don't understand these things or give them due consideration in your argument.
:deadhorse:

Yes, you will regret it when your last one closes up.
:deadhorse:

Yawn.

Internet retailers are only exempt from this scrutiny because they...er...their Checkout Now! buttons - give no advice whatsoever. (Except what you can read online.) The only help they need is from the UPS man. And because they do less, they can charge less.

If that's going to be your standard, why expect more from the LFS?

Shopping online still can't beat local for being able to put your hands and eyes on the item/creature you're about to purchase...so own up to there being value in that at least and be willing to pay a little for that value.

And if you want to be a complainer (raise your hand!), don't B**** when you have to look online for good advice....if you would be willing to pay more than a red cent for anything, local fish stores would be able to hire (and keep) smart people on staff. You leave them no choice but to hire seasonal help. Duh! The undertone of thinking here that says the internet (vs the LFS) is a wealth of infallible reefing info is both laughable and delusional. There's more bad info online than in the real world and it's much easier to get to bad info online. Don't knock it though: "easier access to more info" is what online is all about.

It takes effort and a brain to sort the wheat from the chaff whether you're online or not - the price of being in this hobby.

As has been alluded elsewhere, try talking to customers in a LFS day-in and day-out for a few years. You'd be surprised how much bad info is learned from the internet every single day. (Gasp!)

Or maybe the complainers just need to find a cheaper hobby, if "cheaper" is what means so much to them. Sand castles, maybe?

-Matt

P.S. Most of these tests are bad (fish do not choke on sand in the water), or a waste of time (litany of theoretical questions)...arguing for empty things like trendiness, or a hold policy. Last, there are so many DIY ways to save money in our hobby nowadays it seems silly to complain about LFS prices. If anything, we need an article like this on obscene frag prices.

 

[Reef Pets]

I gotta agree completely with mcarroll.
Consumers should know what they are purchasing. As for information, there are a million different opinions of what works and does not work in this hobby. Hobbyist will go to a LFS and ask question after question only to go home and look up the information. When the information is different people automatically assume the LFS is wrong because we all know that everything posted on the Internet is 100% correct. Reef keeping is not an exact science therefore many opinions come into play.
I don't deal with fish at all but in my opinion I don't think a store should hold a fish and take responsibility for the fish. If a tank is not prepared for a certain fish then it should be the responsibility of the consumer not to make the purchase until their tank is ready.

A LFS store being dishonest and a LFS giving an opinion is completely different.
If you wanna buy sand and a fish why should I question it? If I go to Walmart and purchase ammonia and bleach for cleaning the manager or cashier certainly won't tell me not to mix them.
As a consumer be responsible with your purchases and have knowledge of where you are spending your hard earned cash.

 

[totion]

A LFS store being dishonest and a LFS giving an opinion is completely different.
If you wanna buy sand and a fish why should I question it? If I go to Walmart and purchase ammonia and bleach for cleaning the manager or cashier certainly won't tell me not to mix them.
As a consumer be responsible with your purchases and have knowledge of where you are spending your hard earned cash.

+1!

 

[extremecoral]

First of all, very good title by the way Rev.
LFS: “Local Fish Shop” or “Lying For Sales?!” Is Your Store Legit?

I think it's more like a ethic issue in business, and I'm talking all business not just fish only. For example, when you go to a restaurant, of course, you expect the food is safe, and healthy to eat, because of regulations, policies, and procedure that a restaurant can't do wrong otherwise they can't go unnoticed. Same thing for fish industry, you brought a fish home from your LFS, and boom next day it's dead, of course, the LFS can't go unnoticed. And of course the more fishy the store is the less customer they can bring in which equals to closure.