It's OVER and DONE with! Outta Here! But this was the best.......
- QUESTION OF THE DAY
- Thread starter revhtree
- Start date
- Tagged users None
But it's not just testing its giving stability that manual testing and dosing cannot ever match. As it tests and doses to suit the uptake over the day and automatically adjusts the dosing to suit when and as corals are either added or removed from the system.
I would never trust any system to do that!
I think it's easy enough to take the numbers you get from the auto tester and then adjust the dosing yourself. It's not like these numbers will drift around a lot after you have got them dialed in. If they are suddenly drifiting around I would rather an alert to say my ALK is low rather than keep seeing that it is fine only to find out a week later that the dosing pumps have been dumping in twice as much Two Part or turned up my calc reactor to keep the numbers up!
Then you find out that the ALK reading is not correct and your ALK is through the roof or your Mg is through the roof.
When you check it yourself you can think it through and see if what is happening is making sense, or know if it is time to break out a Hanna test Kit a recheck the readings from the automatic tester.
Last edited:
Robert@BRS
New Member
Hey @revhtree! Thanks for the pole and this one seems to be right up my alley. Plus I am in between tanks right now so salivating over new equipment is all I can do at the moment! LOL
Game-changing is a tough criterion for me. Game-changing is something like LED lights over MH/T5 or controllable DC pumps. Things that drastically improve the end result as opposed to simply making the way we already do things a little easier.
Let's say the most impressive advancement in reef aquarium tech!
1. Neptune Systems Trident was a big one for the entire community, the first electronic monitor that easily tests the BIG 3 major elements. It just so happens this electronic monitor also plays nice with a very high-quality dosing pump and the most widely used aquarium control ecosystem on the market, now that is more akin to game-changing technology.
2. Coralvue's Hydros announcement and release of the Wave Engine have caught my eye and I think has the potential to be more of a game-changing type idea as well. The idea of reducing power supplies and controlling different brand pumps and powerheads using a central app is just brilliant. The pump performance monitoring with smartphone notifications seems to be really valuable as well. If I know when the pump speed/rpm slowly starts to fall, I can plan for a big cleaning.
I wonder if any of the controller companies have considered integration with Google Calendar? Is that already possible?
I really want to see the entire line-up of control devices from Hydros and a strong battery backup device for it.
3. I was pretty amped on hearing about that first generation from Mindstream but...
wha wha wha. I really hope this technology is not lost. It seems as though these ionic probes are trickling into the monitoring space. Excited for that in the future.
4. Bulk Reef Supply released a line of really affordable high-quality foods and some German-made titanium heaters. I am a little bias here, all things considered, but I can confidently say these products were created with one major objective; make it the best. While the food is really cool, the heaters win by a longshot. I think we nailed it with the heaters; replaceable probe, controller and element, much better internal tech. inside the heating element, precise temp. monitoring and smarter programming specifically for reef tank owners.
5. I have always been a tremendous fan of the AI Prime LED because the app is the easiest to use and the output/cost ratio is awesome. I would consider x4 - x8 Prime fixtures over many of the larger, more expensive lights. The x4 new higher output color options from AI has me jazzed; especially the option of a refugium light.
6. Although it was technically released in late 2018, the controller mounting board is a cool product that I played a role in developing. I think having this option is valuable for not only safety but also makes it easier for inexperienced hobbyists to build/keep a clean and modern looking system. In the day of DC control...everything, a mounting system of some sort is almost mandatory.
These are just a few that stuck out to me and I am sure there are quite a few more that are deserving. I am really really looking forward to 2020 not only because of my new role here at Bulk Reef Supply but also for some of the new aquarium technology that I already know is on the way. I suspect 2020 will prove to be filled with even more "game-changing" products.
Game-changing is a tough criterion for me. Game-changing is something like LED lights over MH/T5 or controllable DC pumps. Things that drastically improve the end result as opposed to simply making the way we already do things a little easier.
Let's say the most impressive advancement in reef aquarium tech!
1. Neptune Systems Trident was a big one for the entire community, the first electronic monitor that easily tests the BIG 3 major elements. It just so happens this electronic monitor also plays nice with a very high-quality dosing pump and the most widely used aquarium control ecosystem on the market, now that is more akin to game-changing technology.
2. Coralvue's Hydros announcement and release of the Wave Engine have caught my eye and I think has the potential to be more of a game-changing type idea as well. The idea of reducing power supplies and controlling different brand pumps and powerheads using a central app is just brilliant. The pump performance monitoring with smartphone notifications seems to be really valuable as well. If I know when the pump speed/rpm slowly starts to fall, I can plan for a big cleaning.
I wonder if any of the controller companies have considered integration with Google Calendar? Is that already possible?
I really want to see the entire line-up of control devices from Hydros and a strong battery backup device for it.
3. I was pretty amped on hearing about that first generation from Mindstream but...
wha wha wha. I really hope this technology is not lost. It seems as though these ionic probes are trickling into the monitoring space. Excited for that in the future. 4. Bulk Reef Supply released a line of really affordable high-quality foods and some German-made titanium heaters. I am a little bias here, all things considered, but I can confidently say these products were created with one major objective; make it the best. While the food is really cool, the heaters win by a longshot. I think we nailed it with the heaters; replaceable probe, controller and element, much better internal tech. inside the heating element, precise temp. monitoring and smarter programming specifically for reef tank owners.
5. I have always been a tremendous fan of the AI Prime LED because the app is the easiest to use and the output/cost ratio is awesome. I would consider x4 - x8 Prime fixtures over many of the larger, more expensive lights. The x4 new higher output color options from AI has me jazzed; especially the option of a refugium light.
6. Although it was technically released in late 2018, the controller mounting board is a cool product that I played a role in developing. I think having this option is valuable for not only safety but also makes it easier for inexperienced hobbyists to build/keep a clean and modern looking system. In the day of DC control...everything, a mounting system of some sort is almost mandatory.
These are just a few that stuck out to me and I am sure there are quite a few more that are deserving. I am really really looking forward to 2020 not only because of my new role here at Bulk Reef Supply but also for some of the new aquarium technology that I already know is on the way. I suspect 2020 will prove to be filled with even more "game-changing" products.
MnFish1
10K Club member
This is interesting - why? No one needs alkalinity testing every 15 minutes or 4 hours, etc - A test is a test - it doesnt do anything. There is (as of yet) no proof that keeping alkalinity at xxxxxxx constantly improves anything at all.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
It does adjust dosing based on the testing to help keep it constant. There is no proof for most of what we do in the hobby. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that shows maintaining alkalinity fairly constant is important. I don't know anyone who is successful with an SPS tank who doesn't either do large regular water changes, run a calcium reactor, or dose.
MnFish1
10K Club member
Agreed - but fairly constant does not equal 'constant'. This is not a trivial point (imo) - for example. -keeping the alk between 8 and 9 consistently - is that better or worse than keeping it between 8.5 and 8.6. First - none of the technologies can do the second - within their margin of error - and second - there is no evidence that either is better or worse.
There is definitely no evidence that testing alk every 1 minute (pick your interval) is better than daily. This is not a bash against any company - but - I do wish that there was more evidence before recommending that people spend $ hundreds for a piece of equipment. And realize I was a supporter of Mindstream (who also had a faulty argument of testing every xxx minutes)
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I am happy if my kalk stays between 9.3 dkh and 10dkh which would take at least daily testing before I got my KH Director. Even with daily testing I couldn't always do it. My Director only tests 3 times a day but the additional testing is enough. I know people who have rapidly growing SPS systems that can't keep alkalinity within a 1dkh band even testing twice a day. If you can keep Alkalinity in a 1dkh band, and don't mind the testing you are currently doing, I would agree that an automatic monitor is not for you.
MnFish1
10K Club member
Again - curious - how often - before you had the Kh director - using whatever dosing you were doing - would your alk (within the parameters of the test). vary that much - for me it was rarely. One thing I learned in medicine - people order tests - but tests are only that - they don't do anything. So person comes in to a doctor and says I have pain here and here - he/she ordered tests - they are normal - the person still has pain.
Testing and dosing. That's something aquarists have been doing on their own for decades.
I get that it makes things convenient. However, if someone starts out with one of these before having an understanding of those parameters, it's a recipe for disaster.
But this is just my opinion. For me, the enjoyment comes from hands on maintaining a tank. I will probably never own a self-driving car either.
And yeah, what the other guy said as well. All electronics fail eventually.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
With daily testing it rarely changed that much between individual tests but it did change outside of that range over the course of a few days because I wasn't testing and adjusting my dosing often enough. I went through a streak this past summer where my alkalinity demand increased by over 200% in under 4 months. I've gone from a low of dosing 60ml per day to over 240ml per day this past year.
Trying to argue that these products don't have the advertised value to some of us based on your system isn't a very valid argument to make. If you have evidence that stable alkalinity doesn't have value, I would love to see it.
MnFish1
10K Club member
I think you were reading more into my post that I implied. In fact - I'm surprised at your response a little - because there was never an argument - stated or implied in my question to you. I never stated that stable alkalinity 'didnt have value'. I merely asked a question - how often did more frequent testing 'make a difference' in your tank. Which you answered (thanks)
I never made any kind of argument suggesting that 'my system' was any better or worse than yours. The point was merely - to get your experience.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
Asking for my experience doesn't seem to match your actual posts.
These were assertions you made that I disagreed with. I feel there is plenty of evidence that maintaining alk at a stable level is beneficial. Testing provides information that can be used to automatically adjust dosing and provide more stable alkalinity.
MnFish1
10K Club member
Of course you're correct the more stable the better (alkalinity wise) - the question I asked was basically - what in your experience suggests that measuring it with a machine does a 'better job' than measuring it with a test tube - over the long term.
The answer is more of consistency of the testing.
Manual testing is sporadic. The best reefkeepers on the planet have lives to live and things to do. The manual testing is done only when time is there to do it.
Is one test better than the other. Not in my opinion. My results from Hanna to Trident have always matchd each other.
But before Trident I tested when I had the time. Sometimes that was daily as I wanted, and honestly more often than not it would wind up weekly,
Between the testing of the big three. Often I would naturally have a large change in them when the testing was delayed of course.
So there is no argument IMO that there is any negative side on NOT being able to test consistantly.
Especially when everyone preaches stability and minor changes are the greater good here.
Raise of hands here, who has done manual testing and not been able to get it done, then find out your alk has dropped or skyrocketed?
Then for the next whatever time period your having to correct it in a major way.
MnFish1
10K Club member
Agree totally. It will be interesting as to how all of these pieces of equipment function 'over the years. I have no doubt that they have a value - in fact I ordered a mindstream monitor before they folded -so as I said to @Brew12 - I have no complaints about 'testing via machine'. I have my doubts though - that over the long term - relying so much on automation - will eventually lead to just as many of the types of problems you describe (either too much or too little alkalinity based on a problem) - and I only was curious as to what people felt about 'how stable' does alkalinity need to be. Some say 1 doh/day - others are much more tight in their range - is there any evidence out there that one is better than the other:?
I fully understand your thoughts and points here.
This is however unanswerable.
There are to many differences from tank to tank,
Yes there is a hypothetical base line of paramiters we have come up with.
This baseline was gathered on the historical facts of success vs failure, over scientific proof that I feel is your question at hand.
But if you do enough research on this subject I think you will find there are far more longterm successful reef tank that follow closely to the base line water colum paramiters.
At least thats the information that I have found out, so far in this hobby.
Ok not equipment but this was the best piece of news i have read in a long time.
www.reef2rainforest.com
Along with captive bred butterflies hitting the market. 2 of the most complicated genus of fish to breed that we commonly hold.
Brings a lot of possibilities to the furture what we will be able to 100% sustainably hold in our tanks.
VIDEO: Biota's Captive-Bred Red Coris Wrasse - CORAL Magazine
With the captive-breeding of the Red Coris Wrasse, Coris gaimard, Biota Aquariums adds one more captive-bred marine fish to 2019's list of breakthroughs in the world of marine ornamental aquaculture.
Along with captive bred butterflies hitting the market. 2 of the most complicated genus of fish to breed that we commonly hold.
Brings a lot of possibilities to the furture what we will be able to 100% sustainably hold in our tanks.
I voted other and here's the reason why: I'm new - or rather back in the hobby. I will say that since I did this last 13 years ago much has changed. I will say that the 'new' LEDs are amazing, smart pumps, and control systems... WOW! There's a lot to look forward to and to be excited about.
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