Is this HLLE? Also, ich appearance after 3 weeks 2.0+ Copper Power?

[IrezumiHurts]

Started JAN19 so about 4 weeks ago. Got my fish in a 40g QT, used fritz turbostart to jump start bacteria. Running 4xHOBs with seachem matrix and filter floss and 2 sponge filters. Started ramping copper power up to 2.25 over a week. Been doing 25% water change, 30ppm salinity, every week. Nitrates are high (75+ppm), no fuge, but everything else is great. Ammonia is nowhere in sight.

All fish 1-2 inch
Flame angel
Coral beauty
Male/female clowns
Yellow tang
Blue tang
Foxface

Two weeks ago, blue tang started having a spot around his eye. Ive since ramped up the nori in the diet. Then last week the flame angel got a whitish patch on his head (both sides) and jaw line. Its doesnt look like velvet or anything but more like a patch of faded whitish color. Hard to see in picture but its clear in person, i thought i was crazy but my wife asked me if i had noticed so im positive somethings up. Finally my small clown appears to have a few spots appear like ich..im not sure how since im running copper power? They have been reduced to just 1 spot now over the last week. Any suggestions?

 

[threebuoys]

Started JAN19 so about 4 weeks ago. Got my fish in a 40g QT, used fritz turbostart to jump start bacteria. Running 4xHOBs with seachem matrix and filter floss and 2 sponge filters. Started ramping copper power up to 2.25 over a week. Been doing 25% water change, 30ppm salinity, every week. Nitrates are high (75+ppm), no fuge, but everything else is great. Ammonia is nowhere in sight.

All fish 1-2 inch
Flame angel
Coral beauty
Male/female clowns
Yellow tang
Blue tang
Foxface

Two weeks ago, blue tang started having a spot around his eye. Ive since ramped up the nori in the diet. Then last week the flame angel got a whitish patch on his head (both sides) and jaw line. Its doesnt look like velvet or anything but more like a patch of faded whitish color. Hard to see in picture but its clear in person, i thought i was crazy but my wife asked me if i had noticed so im positive somethings up. Finally my small clown appears to have a few spots appear like ich..im not sure how since im running copper power? They have been reduced to just 1 spot now over the last week. Any suggestions?

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Welcome to R2R!

I'm glad to see you are following QT procedures for your first fish.

I'm not clear how long your copper level has been at or above 2.25 ppm since you ramped up slowly. Copper does not become effective until 2.25 - 2.50 ppm concentration is achieved. However, I doubt the spot you see is ich. Ich spots come and go at different locations while growing in numbers. Sounds like the spot has been in place for some time while other spots have not appeared. I suspect the spot is a mucus plug. I would observe the fish to confirm no additional spots appear. Be sure to maintain the 2.25 - 2.50 concentration for a full 30 days. In the future, you can ramp up more quickly even in as little as 12 hours. The faster ramp up is most important if ich is visibly present when you fist acquire the fish, otherwise, the infection may persist for some time. What copper test kit do you use? Accurate testing is obviously very important. With regular water changes, the importance of constantly monitoring copper is critical.

The markings on the blue tang are similar to HLLE. When HLLE appears, water quality is often suspected. Particularly, HLLE is associated with the use of lower quality activated charcoal within the filtration system. This article by Jay discusses HLLE in depth.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/head-and-lateral-line-erosion-hlle.784/

I'm surprised nitrates are at the level you indicated since this appears to be a new QT with very clear water and frequent water changes. However, I can't say for sure that is creating a HLLE issue. What test kits are you using for water quality? The marking may be a result of other factors. Do the markings appear on both sides of the head?

I can see the lighter colored areas on the angel's head and face but it's too early to diagnose as HLLE or other possibilites. Continued observation and quality food will continue to be important.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

The blue tang does have head and lateral line erosion, that is very unusual to see that so severe in a fish in a QT without carbon. I wonder if it was exposed to dusty carbon before you got it? There isn't anything to be done about that though - diet changes, etc. don't seem to help this rapid onset HLLE. Also, young hepatus tangs are not big nori feeders.

The clownfish likely just has a few bumps/missing scales. It won't be ich, and flukes don't show like that. One side note - there is no reason to slowly ramp up copper power. That is old advice that only applies to ionic copper products. A slow ramp up just allows disease issues to get started up.

Do you have an ammonia test other than the Sea Chem badge? Is it also reading zero? What test are you using for copper?

Finally, although there are lots of hiding places, I would worry that the coral beauty and the flame angel are going to stress each other out by aggression. I don't think that is a cause of the flame's discoloration, but maybe.

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thats quite a few fish stuffed into a 40g and many tubes reducing the swimming space but agree on the accuracy of ammonia badge which i dont trust and the HLLE. - I would suggest taking a water sample to a store that does NOT use Api kits and have them test your ammonia and nitrates and compare readings- then you'll know where your levels truly are at
I will never trust a $7 badge or $25 master kit to sustain hundreds of dollars in livestock.
For HLLE- Often poor water quality ammonia /nitrate) and poor diet are contributors. Flame looks to have something bacterial which may stem from water issues.
Start with verification of water readings:
ammonia - nitrate-ph-salinity

 

[MnFish1]

The only other question (and I also don't see Ich - now) but the fact that you said there were more spots that are now gone WOULD go along with the possibility that the fish had CI. I would just make sure that your copper level is consistently 2.25 - 2.5 - after water changes, etc. I'm sure you're doing it - but you should be checking daily if possible. Agree with @vetteguy53081, @Jay Hemdal and @threebuoys that HLLE is present in the tang. It surprise me if it developed in this short of a period?

 

[IrezumiHurts]

Welcome to R2R!

I'm glad to see you are following QT procedures for your first fish.

Thanks! Been following this forum and humble fish before jumping in.

I'm not clear how long your copper level has been at or above 2.25 ppm since you ramped up slowly.

Only a week. My angels seemed to decrease appetite so i went down to 2.0 then moved it slowly back to 2.25.

Copper does not become effective until 2.25 - 2.50 ppm concentration is achieved. However, I doubt the spot you see is ich. Ich spots come and go at different locations while growing in numbers. Sounds like the spot has been in place for some time while other spots have not appeared. I suspect the spot is a mucus plug. I would observe the fish to confirm no additional spots appear. Be sure to maintain the 2.25 - 2.50 concentration for a full 30 days.

Will do. Am i likely to cause undue injury? They will have been in copper for approximately 2 months by that point

In the future, you can ramp up more quickly even in as little as 12 hours. The faster ramp up is most important if ich is visibly present when you fist acquire the fish, otherwise, the infection may persist for some time. What copper test kit do you use?

Hanna checker! I have two, just in case.

Accurate testing is obviously very important. With regular water changes, the importance of constantly monitoring copper is critical.

I've been testing my makeup water before adding

The markings on the blue tang are similar to HLLE. When HLLE appears, water quality is often suspected. Particularly, HLLE is associated with the use of lower quality activated charcoal within the filtration system. This article by Jay discusses HLLE in depth.

I did have charcoal bags that came with the aqua clear running for about a week, but removed them once i introduced copper.

Thank you for the article, I'll keep that in mind if i ever use charcoal in the future

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/head-and-lateral-line-erosion-hlle.784/

I'm surprised nitrates are at the level you indicated since this appears to be a new QT with very clear water and frequent water changes.

I think it's due to my heavy stock, and likely heavy feeding hand.

In addition to the 4xHOBs and 2x some filters, i also have half a bucket of seachem matrix in that central column, with an airstone disc running bubbles up through it. My sponge filters are also running sir through some ceramic balls from my seeded empty DT. I didn't use many to avoid copper uptake. I also have two big car wash sponges, and am dosing microbacter7 as a supplement. I know this was ambitious stock but tried my best to have overkill no filtration.

However, I can't say for sure that is creating a HLLE issue. What test kits are you using for water quality?

Hanna checkers, salifert for nitrite and red sea +seachem badge for ammonia. I had fluval ammonia and API but tossed it, i couldn't stand them.

The marking may be a result of other factors. Do the markings appear on both sides of the head?

Yes, both sides

I can see the lighter colored areas on the angel's head and face but it's too early to diagnose as HLLE or other possibilites. Continued observation and quality food will continue to be important.

Thanks for the input!

 

[IrezumiHurts]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

The blue tang does have head and lateral line erosion, that is very unusual to see that so severe in a fish in a QT without carbon.

They did have carbon they came with the aqua clear HOBs, but only for a week. Removed after carbon dosed

I wonder if it was exposed to dusty carbon before you got it? There isn't anything to be done about that though - diet changes, etc. don't seem to help this rapid onset HLLE. Also, young hepatus tangs are not big nori feeders.

Thank you for telling me this! I've been stressed out because he won't go after the nori much, even though the foxface and yellow tang are. Now i know why.

He's enjoying the hikari seaweed extreme and mysis shrimp. Stick to that for now?

I also have selcon, but they snubbed their noses at it. I was considering adding garlic

The clownfish likely just has a few bumps/missing scales. It won't be ich, and flukes don't show like that. One side note - there is no reason to slowly ramp up copper power. That is old advice that only applies to ionic copper products. A slow ramp up just allows disease issues to get started up.

Noted for next time

Do you have an ammonia test other than the Sea Chem badge? Is it also reading zero? What test are you using for copper?

Hanna checkerx2 for copper, red sea for ammonia. Reading 0. I have an absurd amount of bio media, almost half a bucket of seachem matrix (label says that math is good for 400 gal, way above my 40g). All of it has some sort of passive or induced follow through it.

Finally, although there are lots of hiding places, I would worry that the coral beauty and the flame angel are going to stress each other out by aggression. I don't think that is a cause of the flame's discoloration, but maybe.

They don't get along. The flame angel does pick on the coral beauty. It was worse until i added lots of PVC, now the aggression has been reduced significantly. The flame tolerates him but will still chase if he gets too close. It's still not perfect, but it's not to the point i feel unethical. I was about to return him to the store but the last ditch effort seems to have helped. I knew going in this was a gamble. They are going into a 75g display, if they can't reconcile one will go back to LFS.

Plan to upgrade to 180g in the future to accommodate fish growth.

Jay

Thank you for taking the time to post your input Jay. Read a lot of your and others posts before venturing down this path. Of course as a new hobbyist is easy to miss things, it's literally a sea of information. Please reach out if you feel I've missed anything, and I'll update the post as needed.

 

[IrezumiHurts]

Thats quite a few fish stuffed into a 40g and many tubes reducing the swimming space but agree

This was probably my biggest calculated risk going in, was hoping to get through the QT process in one swoop for my first batch of fish. I'm running a lot of bio media to help offset it a bit.

Some of the PVC was added to reduce aggression between the two dwarf angels as a last effort before returning one. I've read it usually doesn't go well but it can also be hit or miss if they tolerate each other.

So far the additional PVC has worked to this effect, but yes it's a bit more cramped though they do swim through.

on the accuracy of ammonia badge which i dont trust and the HLLE. - I would suggest taking a water sample to a store that does NOT use Api kits and have them test your ammonia and nitrates and compare readings- then you'll know where your levels truly are at
I will never trust a $7 badge or $25 master kit to sustain hundreds of dollars in livestock.

I'm also using red sea ammonia. I've only got the badge because i had read it was one of the only things that could still detect ammonia in copper water mostly reliably.

I ran the system almost 2 weeks before starting copper, to ensure ammonia was being managed.

Hanna checker for everything else

For HLLE- Often poor water quality ammonia /nitrate) and poor diet are contributors. Flame looks to have something bacterial which may stem from water issues.
Start with verification of water readings:
ammonia - nitrate-ph-salinity

My nitrates are very high, about 100ppm. I read they pose more of an issue outside of FOWLRs but i know they still aren't good for the fish. My hope was to get them in the DT soon so the fuge could begin working it's magic. I was doing water changes more aggressively to reduce them but the salt was really getting expensive for 40g tank, after further reading just accepted it was a temporary issue for my QT and wasn't worth the cost to keep up with them. I could be mistaken.

Salinity is 30ppm

I haven't been aggressively testing pH, maybe misinformation but have read a lot of people downplaying it's importance. Let me know if that's erroneous thinking

Thank you for posting

 

[IrezumiHurts]

The only other question (and I also don't see Ich - now) but the fact that you said there were more spots that are now gone WOULD go along with the possibility that the fish had CI. I would just make sure that your copper level is consistently 2.25 - 2.5 - after water changes, etc. I'm sure you're doing it - but you should be checking daily if possible. Agree with @vetteguy53081, @Jay Hemdal and @threebuoys that HLLE is present in the tang. It surprise me if it developed in this short of a period?

It came from the LFS with a bit already, but i didn't know what i was looking at so i didn't even know it was an issue until my wife and i started researching it. It has become worse under my care, though whether that's a delayed effect I'm not yet sure.

I am checking copper every 3 days or when doing water changes now. I was doing daily checks for the first 2 weeks but my numbers were so stable it became redundant. I am tracking them on a paper and every time there is a nearly insignificant variance from the last check (within .05 ppm). I'm not running any rock and very very little ceramic

 

[vetteguy53081]

This was probably my biggest calculated risk going in, was hoping to get through the QT process in one swoop for my first batch of fish. I'm running a lot of bio media to help offset it a bit.

Some of the PVC was added to reduce aggression between the two dwarf angels as a last effort before returning one. I've read it usually doesn't go well but it can also be hit or miss if they tolerate each other.

So far the additional PVC has worked to this effect, but yes it's a bit more cramped though they do swim through.



I'm also using red sea ammonia. I've only got the badge because i had read it was one of the only things that could still detect ammonia in copper water mostly reliably.

I ran the system almost 2 weeks before starting copper, to ensure ammonia was being managed.

Hanna checker for everything else



My nitrates are very high, about 100ppm. I read they pose more of an issue outside of FOWLRs but i know they still aren't good for the fish. My hope was to get them in the DT soon so the fuge could begin working it's magic. I was doing water changes more aggressively to reduce them but the salt was really getting expensive for 40g tank, after further reading just accepted it was a temporary issue for my QT and wasn't worth the cost to keep up with them. I could be mistaken.

Salinity is 30ppm

I haven't been aggressively testing pH, maybe misinformation but have read a lot of people downplaying it's importance. Let me know if that's erroneous thinking

Thank you for posting

That level of nitrate impactful to saltwater fish and lead to growth issues, low oxygen and even nitrate poisoning often caused by both overfeeding and Overcrowding a tank in which production of waste builds faster in this case

 

[MnFish1]

I would suggest you check the levels daily. But agree it sounds like a non-issue

 

[MnFish1]

And also agree with the rest - 75 (+) especially the + seems odd.

 

[IrezumiHurts]

That level of nitrate impactful to saltwater fish and lead to growth issues, low oxygen and even nitrate poisoning often caused by both overfeeding and Overcrowding a tank in which production of waste builds faster in this case

I'll get them down and report back

 

[IrezumiHurts]

And also agree with the rest - 75 (+) especially the + seems odd.

I'll try getting them down!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

They did have carbon they came with the aqua clear HOBs, but only for a week. Removed after carbon dosed



Thank you for telling me this! I've been stressed out because he won't go after the nori much, even though the foxface and yellow tang are. Now i know why.

He's enjoying the hikari seaweed extreme and mysis shrimp. Stick to that for now?

I also have selcon, but they snubbed their noses at it. I was considering adding garlic



Noted for next time



Hanna checkerx2 for copper, red sea for ammonia. Reading 0. I have an absurd amount of bio media, almost half a bucket of seachem matrix (label says that math is good for 400 gal, way above my 40g). All of it has some sort of passive or induced follow through it.



They don't get along. The flame angel does pick on the coral beauty. It was worse until i added lots of PVC, now the aggression has been reduced significantly. The flame tolerates him but will still chase if he gets too close. It's still not perfect, but it's not to the point i feel unethical. I was about to return him to the store but the last ditch effort seems to have helped. I knew going in this was a gamble. They are going into a 75g display, if they can't reconcile one will go back to LFS.

Plan to upgrade to 180g in the future to accommodate fish growth.



Thank you for taking the time to post your input Jay. Read a lot of your and others posts before venturing down this path. Of course as a new hobbyist is easy to miss things, it's literally a sea of information. Please reach out if you feel I've missed anything, and I'll update the post as needed.

I think garlic is over rated as a food additive. Selcon is o.k., but the mysids have enough essential fatty acids. The Hikari pellets are good. I also feed New Life Spectrum/

Jay