Is the 4 year tank, peak reefing?

[lakai]

We spend the first year screwing around with our tanks constantly, we'll put our hands in our tanks almost daily, do weekly water changes and freak out over a light patch of brown diatoms because it disrupts our perfectly clean sand and aquascape visually. As we approach year two we've dealt with most ugly algaes, pests and hopefully either avoided or won the battle against the dreaded dinos. Around this time our tanks built up the necessary microbiome and really found stability to where anything we throw in the tank can grow. We start noticing real progress the less we mess with it, we don't put our hands in the tank unless completely necessary. During this time any frags have become colonies and the next two years you kind of coast by running the tank on auto-pilot with minimal effort an is the time we really get to just enjoy our tanks.

This is what my tank looked like at around Year 3.

Then something happens. you wake up with one colony rtn overnight and that becomes the start of a slow deterioration of your tank to the point where enough corals have died to where we have to do something about it. I always noticed that many people either do a major reboot of their tanks or the tank crashes around the 4-5 year mark for whatever reason. At minimum there is some major disruption that we really can't explain during this time and its nothing we can see on a ICP because lets be honest, 4 year old colonies aren't going to die because your nutrients are higher.

This is my tank at year 5-6.

My best guess is there was some shift in the microbiome and I'm not talking about anything that comes in a bottle (Persoally I would never start another tank with any of that stuff anymore ) Losing all of my coral sucks but thats not going to stop me from restarting. This time around, I know exactly what to do if there is a problem or know if should do anything at all.

I know there are people who tanks that are 10-20 years old but sorry if this offends anyone but most people that claim to have a tank that old have never shown them or the ones I have seen don't look that great imo.

I would like to hear some experiences from those of you who had a similar experience at around year 4 or at least have a more advanced discussion on what we can do to keep our corals looking amazing longer.

 

[Dan_P]

We spend the first year screwing around with our tanks constantly, we'll put our hands in our tanks almost daily, do weekly water changes and freak out over a light patch of brown diatoms because it disrupts our perfectly clean sand and aquascape visually. As we approach year two we've dealt with most ugly algaes, pests and hopefully either avoided or won the battle against the dreaded dinos. Around this time our tanks built up the necessary microbiome and really found stability to where anything we throw in the tank can grow. We start noticing real progress the less we mess with it, we don't put our hands in the tank unless completely necessary. During this time any frags have become colonies and the next two years you kind of coast by running the tank on auto-pilot with minimal effort an is the time we really get to just enjoy our tanks.

This is what my tank looked like at around Year 3.

Then something happens. you wake up with one colony rtn overnight and that becomes the start of a slow deterioration of your tank to the point where enough corals have died to where we have to do something about it. I always noticed that many people either do a major reboot of their tanks or the tank crashes around the 4-5 year mark for whatever reason. At minimum there is some major disruption that we really can't explain during this time and its nothing we can see on a ICP because lets be honest, 4 year old colonies aren't going to die because your nutrients are higher.

This is my tank at year 5-6.

My best guess is there was some shift in the microbiome and I'm not talking about anything that comes in a bottle (Persoally I would never start another tank with any of that stuff anymore ) Losing all of my coral sucks but thats not going to stop me from restarting. This time around, I know exactly what to do if there is a problem or know if should do anything at all.

I know there are people who tanks that are 10-20 years old but sorry if this offends anyone but most people that claim to have a tank that old have never shown them or the ones I have seen don't look that great imo.

I would like to hear some experiences from those of you who had a similar experience at around year 4 or at least have a more advanced discussion on what we can do to keep our corals looking amazing longer.

No experience in this area but let me offer up a perspective.

The aquarium has a limited capacity to support life (pick whatever species you like). At some point, the amount of living stuff exceeds the carrying capacity of the aquarium. Carrying capacity is determined by many factors, bacteria being only one factor. Carrying capacity is likely the point when things are looking good. Past this point, the system starts to degrade, slowly at first and then exponentially. The only way around this is to keep the biomass below the carrying capacity by harvesting it, probably on a regular basis and maintaining the biomass below the carrying capacity.

 

[littlefoxx]

We spend the first year screwing around with our tanks constantly, we'll put our hands in our tanks almost daily, do weekly water changes and freak out over a light patch of brown diatoms because it disrupts our perfectly clean sand and aquascape visually. As we approach year two we've dealt with most ugly algaes, pests and hopefully either avoided or won the battle against the dreaded dinos. Around this time our tanks built up the necessary microbiome and really found stability to where anything we throw in the tank can grow. We start noticing real progress the less we mess with it, we don't put our hands in the tank unless completely necessary. During this time any frags have become colonies and the next two years you kind of coast by running the tank on auto-pilot with minimal effort an is the time we really get to just enjoy our tanks.

This is what my tank looked like at around Year 3.

Then something happens. you wake up with one colony rtn overnight and that becomes the start of a slow deterioration of your tank to the point where enough corals have died to where we have to do something about it. I always noticed that many people either do a major reboot of their tanks or the tank crashes around the 4-5 year mark for whatever reason. At minimum there is some major disruption that we really can't explain during this time and its nothing we can see on a ICP because lets be honest, 4 year old colonies aren't going to die because your nutrients are higher.

This is my tank at year 5-6.

My best guess is there was some shift in the microbiome and I'm not talking about anything that comes in a bottle (Persoally I would never start another tank with any of that stuff anymore ) Losing all of my coral sucks but thats not going to stop me from restarting. This time around, I know exactly what to do if there is a problem or know if should do anything at all.

I know there are people who tanks that are 10-20 years old but sorry if this offends anyone but most people that claim to have a tank that old have never shown them or the ones I have seen don't look that great imo.

I would like to hear some experiences from those of you who had a similar experience at around year 4 or at least have a more advanced discussion on what we can do to keep our corals looking amazing longer.

Its just frustrating cause sometimes it seems like you have a good thing for a year then boom all that gets undone! Im still banging my head against the wall with my 300 gallon. Whats your tank look like now??

 

[Vivid Creative Aquatics]

No experience in this area but let me offer up a perspective.

The aquarium has a limited capacity to support life (pick whatever species you like). At some point, the amount of living stuff exceeds the carrying capacity of the aquarium. Carrying capacity is determined by many factors, bacteria being only one factor. Carrying capacity is likely the point when things are looking good. Past this point, the system starts to degrade, slowly at first and then exponentially. The only way around this is to keep the biomass below the carrying capacity by harvesting it, probably on a regular basis and maintaining the biomass below the carrying capacity.

I feel like you on to something here.

In nature, coral, particular SPS coral, is constantly being predated on, broken off, or pruned by other natural means. In an home aquarium, that's not always the case. Maybe the constant struggle of surviving in the wild spurs some sort of biological mechanism that promotes a more healthy coral colony - even beyond exceeding the biomass caring capacity of the system, as I have have seen some really full tanks that seem to thrive and get past that 3 or 4 year mark


Some of the best looking, long-lived tanks have owners who regularly prune and trim

 

[Dan_P]

Some of the best looking, long-lived tanks have owners who regularly prune and trim

This might be the simplest explanation for long lived systems. The same principle applies to growing a plant in a flower pot for a long time.

 

[exnisstech]

I've seen old tanks and recently broke down a tank that was 8 years old. But none of the old tanks I've seen nor mine were packed full of acros so @Dan_P explanation makes perfect sense to me.

 

[fish farmer]

No experience in this area but let me offer up a perspective.

The aquarium has a limited capacity to support life (pick whatever species you like). At some point, the amount of living stuff exceeds the carrying capacity of the aquarium. Carrying capacity is determined by many factors, bacteria being only one factor. Carrying capacity is likely the point when things are looking good. Past this point, the system starts to degrade, slowly at first and then exponentially. The only way around this is to keep the biomass below the carrying capacity by harvesting it, probably on a regular basis and maintaining the biomass below the carrying capacity.

Yes! Biomass!

FWIW I work with trout biomass...there's a sweet spot with raising trout in tanks. Lots of math involved, flow and density indexes. I "can" push these past their limits, but usually will come with consequences like poor fin condition or worse an emergency happening and the heavier tanks stress faster than the lightly stocked tanks.

I would suspect my 29 gallon reef is at it's carrying capacity for certain optimum conditions...like flow. I have hammers/frammers, lots of them, over 100 heads, many small colonies tucked everywhere. This limits my ability to properly direct flow through my system.

 

[Seansea]

After just coming back from hawaii and seeing one porites coral that was 100 feet long and 60 feet wide made me realize we are really trying to keep these corals subdued In our tanks. Even polo reef massive tank is miniscule compared to the ocean. Maybe after awhile the corals suffocate themselves. I would say alot of pruning would help alleviate it but I don't know if we could ever keep up.

 

[Dom]

No experience in this area but let me offer up a perspective.

The aquarium has a limited capacity to support life (pick whatever species you like). At some point, the amount of living stuff exceeds the carrying capacity of the aquarium. Carrying capacity is determined by many factors, bacteria being only one factor. Carrying capacity is likely the point when things are looking good. Past this point, the system starts to degrade, slowly at first and then exponentially. The only way around this is to keep the biomass below the carrying capacity by harvesting it, probably on a regular basis and maintaining the biomass below the carrying capacity.

This never occurred to me, but it does make perfect sense. Tank resources have limits.

 

[Ef4life]

That whole “coast with minimal effort” thing leads me to believe it’s not just an age thing. I’m not saying you neglected your tank but, imo coasting is when stuff starts to die because you’re thinking it looks good and fine and you start to slack on maintenance. Not maintaining the tank the with same effort you once did can bring on a slow boil of change for the worse. The microbiome is living and always changing, IMO the microbiome also changes because of our maintenance schedules. By not maintaining it the same way on schedule the microbiome will try and cover for us Until it changes too much and bad stuff starts to take over.

 

[Ef4life]

Also species specific tanks are pretty much always going to get rocked when something takes hold. A disease will spread quickly or harmful bacteria will do what it does and consume and multiply. Then once something is going in the tank then the alk/ca balance starts getting out of whack and it’s unstable

Keeping a mixed reef should give a longer term chance of not losing everything at once vs a single species.

 

[Dan_P]

Yes! Biomass!

FWIW I work with trout biomass...there's a sweet spot with raising trout in tanks. Lots of math involved, flow and density indexes. I "can" push these past their limits, but usually will come with consequences like poor fin condition or worse an emergency happening and the heavier tanks stress faster than the lightly stocked tanks.

I would suspect my 29 gallon reef is at it's carrying capacity for certain optimum conditions...like flow. I have hammers/frammers, lots of them, over 100 heads, many small colonies tucked everywhere. This limits my ability to properly direct flow through my system.

It occurred to me while reading Timmons book on recirculating aquaculture that maybe coral aquaculture has not reached the same level of understanding. For example, how would we calculate the proper flow rate for growing out stony coral? Then it occurred to me that we are no where near such understanding for setting up and maintaining a reef aquarium. There is a ton of advice on the subject but not so much understanding.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

I don't know if there is any correlation, but I think its somewhere along OP's line of thought.... at the 4-5 year mark, the tanks are full and no longer adding corals, not really adding anything for that matter. I think that once new bacteria's and germs stop getting added to a tank, the existing bacteria dwindles, or becomes stale.

Like when we all stayed home during covid and then we all get the cold easily. I don't know how else to explain it, but I think maybe its important to keep adding to the bacterial soup, maybe throw a frag in a the tank once a month to feed the biomme, something like that.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

That whole “coast with minimal effort” thing leads me to believe it’s not just an age thing. I’m not saying you neglected your tank but, imo coasting is when stuff starts to die because you’re thinking it looks good and fine and you start to slack on maintenance. Not maintaining the tank the with same effort you once did can bring on a slow boil of change for the worse. The microbiome is living and always changing, IMO the microbiome also changes because of our maintenance schedules. By not maintaining it the same way on schedule the microbiome will try and cover for us Until it changes too much and bad stuff starts to take over.

Exactly what I thought. Maybe it's the fact we go to Cruze mode and don't fret over the small stuff.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

More years of keeping stuff also just means more chance of something bad happening, such as power failures, pests like vermitids and caulerpa, bacterial and viral pathogens, etc.

 

[Borat]

One should be very cautious when the tank is in odd years (1,3,5 etc), but if your tank is in even year (0,2,4 etc) - nothing to worry about.

 

[twentyleagues]

I have seen some pretty long lived threads on tanks lately I wish I remembered their names to give them a shout out here. One @Randy Holmes-Farley had commented on richard something (sorry) the op of that tank commented on giving the tank a "haircut" multiple times. One I am unsure of age is @Reefer Matt . Obviously @Paul B probably has the oldest tank here but it isnt sps dom and it also gets live foods but maybe with the addition of live foods it helps the microbiome.

I know my 120g euphyllia tank was more than 4-5 years old and not changed before I got out in 2010 my sps 125g was probably at the 5year mark. I was constantly cutting corals in the sps tank but rarely did I do that in the 120, maybe once a year.

 

[Eric R.]

I agree that lots of the people I can think of with nice longer term tanks (10, 15, 20 years old, like Sanjay, Richard Ross, Duane Oestereich, Marc Levenson (though he did have that bad crash a couple years back)) do trim a lot. It’s needed when you get grown in tanks. I haven’t been in the hobby that long, but it seems like fully grown in tanks that need regular trimming are less common than they used to be.

Also, I think Rich and Sanjay and Duane have the attitude of if one coral isn’t doing well, but the rest of the tank is fine, don’t mess with your tank. They seem less likely to mess with their tank excessively like others tend to, and seem to have more stability and long term success.

But they’ve also had crashes from kalk, or treated their tanks with OA when it seems like they had a bacterial infection. They try to reduce the likelihood of something malfunctioning or having a single point of failure, so partly system design partly good husbandry and experience.

I really like Rich’s MACNA talk on the right kind of lazy -

 

[cilyjr]

In nature, coral, particular SPS coral, is constantly being predated on, broken off, or pruned by other natural means. In an home aquarium, that's not always the case. Maybe the constant struggle of surviving in the wild spurs some sort of biological mechanism that promotes a more healthy coral colony - even beyond exceeding the biomass caring capacity of the system, as I have have seen some really full tanks that seem to thrive and get past that 3 or 4 year mark

Maybe, I have been keeping angels in my tank that may nip at coral. The idea is some predation can spur coral growth, partially due to the waste product being more nutritious for corallites. There was a scholarly paper done 5 or 6 years ago. The trade off is daytime polyp extension.

More years of keeping stuff also just means more chance of something bad happening, such as power failures, pests like vermitids and caulerpa, bacterial and viral pathogens, etc.

Like most ladder accidents happen with in 6 feet off the ground. Not because people are less careful like most assume, but because people are most often in that range.

One should be very cautious when the tank is in odd years (1,3,5 etc), but if your tank is in even year (0,2,4 etc) - nothing to worry about.

This theory only accounts for a Gregorian calendar, more studies need to be done on the Chinese, Hijri, and Hebrew calendars.

 

[twentyleagues]

I agree that lots of the people I can think of with nice longer term tanks (10, 15, 20 years old, like Sanjay, Richard Ross, Duane Oestereich, Marc Levenson (though he did have that bad crash a couple years back)) do trim a lot. It’s needed when you get grown in tanks. I haven’t been in the hobby that long, but it seems like fully grown in tanks that need regular trimming are less common than they used to be.

Also, I think Rich and Sanjay and Duane have the attitude of if one coral isn’t doing well, but the rest of the tank is fine, don’t mess with your tank. They seem less likely to mess with their tank excessively like others tend to, and seem to have more stability and long term success.

But they’ve also had crashes from kalk, or treated their tanks with OA when it seems like they had a bacterial infection. They try to reduce the likelihood of something malfunctioning or having a single point of failure, so partly system design partly good husbandry and experience.

I really like Rich’s MACNA talk on the right kind of lazy -

That is the one I couldnt remember.