Is Carbon, Nitrate, and Phosphate Dosing Bad For the Hobby?

[Ike]

How would you define too much turnover and what harm would it do?

It's different for each person and each set-up, and personal preference... That said, I try to keep my skimmer large and the turnover in the sump slow. Ideally a skimmer is turning over just a little less water per hour than the display. My reasoning for that is I want as much water going through the skimmer as possible before it returns to the tank, and without outpacing the return. I also feel that 3-5x the display size is around the sweet spot. I seem to be in the minority on this one though...

 

[road_runner]

I actually think many people have less flow than what they think. Everyone think their flow is right until they actually measure.
Most of the dc pumps out there collapse under head pressure. I had a vectra that is rated 3100gph, when I measured it it was 400gph or so, my plumbing was 1" pipe correctly from pump to bulkhead no elbow or anything.
Then I switched to red dragon my flow jumped to 1600gps..same plumbing same entry point... which I believe is the limit for my plumbing so i was happy.

 

[road_runner]

It's different for each person and each set-up, and personal preference... That said, I try to keep my skimmer large and the turnover in the sump slow. Ideally a skimmer is turning over just a little less water per hour than the display. My reasoning for that is I want as much water going through the skimmer as possible before it returns to the tank, and without outpacing the return. I seem to be in the minority on this one though...

But ike, skimmer flow intake is decided by skimmer pump flow rate.
As long ad skimeme flow intake rate is greater than your return it should be good.
More return flow above that point will not impact the skimmer performance..would it?

 

[Ike]

I run at about 15x turnover. I have no idea if this is too much or too little but it works for me.

My thinking is that it could lead to a slightly higher likelihood of having nitrates be higher. This based on the thought that a greater amount of bypassing a protein skimmer is not as good as processing a higher percentage of water through the sump. I've tried this at all different level and rates and I have always felt my best tanks have turnover rates of 4-5 times. I've run three tanks with one central sump for years and I feel like turnover rates impacts how each tank grows algae and what corals do best in each tank.

 

[ZaneTer]

I run a higher flow because it keeps the temperature more stable. Heaters and probe are in the sump.

A higher turnover keeps the temperature delta between DT and sump to an absolute minimum.

 

[maksim serebro]

A much better protein skimmer first and foremost!

Lol. I wish. My reef octopus ran me $400. I wish I had a grand for a better one

 

[maksim serebro]

And what are your thoughts on algae scrubbers? I have one. Do they remove phosphate and nitrate in similar amounts? Would you guys consider them to be a more natural method of export? Any downsides to them?

 

[Subsea]

Because I don’t do SPS, I hesitated on reposting on this thread. I am here to learn and this thread has much information to be digested on the science & Art of reefkeeping.

The science of phycology is a major component of reefkeeping. Unfortunately, we can’ fix others anytime soon.


@Rick.45cal
Thank you for this nugget of pragmatism.

“There seems to be this persistent and fundamental belief in this hobby that we need to micromange a reef aquarium’s parameters when often that micromanagement is the root cause of the problems in the system. Instead of teaching people how to tell via coral growth and health we speak in numbers, values of parameters. Parameters are important, but the folks that reef exclusively by numbers are almost always the one struggling”

 

[Subsea]

And what are your thoughts on algae scrubbers? I have one. Do they remove phosphate and nitrate in similar amounts? Would you guys consider them to be a more natural method of export? Any downsides to them?

I posted, on this thread, biomass analysis of Gracilaria Parvispora. The ratio of N was 30:1. I have used algae filtration > 30 years. I eat both Red Ogo & Grape Caulerpa. It is especially delightful in chevichee recipe.

You should check out BRS TV video series on algae filtration.

 

[ZaneTer]

I posted, on this thread, biomass analysis of Gracilaria Parvispora. The ratio of N was 30:1. I have used algae filtration > 30 years. I eat both Red Ogo & Grape Caulerpa. It is especially delightful in chevichee recipe.

You should check out BRS TV video series on algae filtration.

I found algae filtration to be very effective but ultimately uncontrollable. I am away for 90 days at a time and couldn’t ask anyone to trim it when it was growing too rapidly. I never did eat any of mine but I could be tempted to try

 

[MabuyaQ]

Nothing wrong with keeping levels at whatever you personally want, but interested in what you mean by balanced

That is part of the other factors because it depends on the animals you keep, the filtration systems you use, the resources you want to spend and the look you want to achieve.

Nothing wrong with keeping levels at whatever you personally want, but interested in what you mean by balanced

Balance is a tricky/fickle thing as it depends on other factors and personal preference what that is. So basicly it is something different in every tank.
My personal preference for balance is a long term ratio of NO3 to PO4 ratio of 1 to 0.01 with a PO4 of 0.04-0.05ppm (so NO3 around 5ppm).
This has given me the best results (no pest algae/cyano and great colors without bleaching issues due to small swings as opposed to when I used to run ULNS with zeovit) and is easily maintained with the resources I have available. Including dosing C to export (N(O3) or GFO to export P(O4) but also dose N(O3) and/or P(O4) or feeding fish/corals more if required to prevent ratio and levels to drift away from balance and desired level for to long.
Others might see better results at a different level and balance because of certain animals they keep, or other parameters.

 

[Subsea]

I found algae filtration to be very effective but ultimately uncontrollable. I am away for 90 days at a time and couldn’t ask anyone to trim it when it was growing too rapidly. I never did eat any of mine but I could be tempted to try

Being away for 28 day on and 28 day off work schedule is precisely why I went with algae filtration. I do not fret over nutrient export, I am all about nutrient recycling. When I was home, I feed heavy with a corresponding increase in biomass of zooplankton and macro algae. The only automation on 1500G system was water makeup. With no auto feed system, extended zooplankton reactor and macro algae decreased in biomass as it feed system.

 

[Mortie31]

That is part of the other factors because it depends on the animals you keep, the filtration systems you use, the resources you want to spend and the look you want to achieve.


Balance is a tricky/fickle thing as it depends on other factors and personal preference what that is. So basicly it is something different in every tank.
My personal preference for balance is a long term ratio of NO3 to PO4 ratio of 1 to 0.01 with a PO4 of 0.04-0.05ppm (so NO3 around 5ppm).
This has given me the best results (no pest algae/cyano and great colors without bleaching issues due to small swings as opposed to when I used to run ULNS with zeovit) and is easily maintained with the resources I have available. Including dosing C to export (N(O3) or GFO to export P(O4) but also dose N(O3) and/or P(O4) or feeding fish/corals more if required to prevent ratio and levels to drift away from balance and desired level for to long.
Others might see better results at a different level and balance because of certain animals they keep, or other parameters.

Thanks that’s a good explanation, I try for similar individual levels (and manage them in a similar way) but I try to avoid thinking of them as connected or a ratio as I think it is misleading and then people start talking about redfield and triton ratios. Even though I’m just building a large algae bed and changing my sump around in the hope it controls my NO3 and PO4 levels

 

[Dana Riddle]

Here's a paper linking organic carbon and nutrients to coral disease. Not saying carbon dosing/nutrient addition is necessarily harmful, but overdoing it could lead to problems.

Do elevated nutrients and organic carbon on Philippine reefs increase the prevalence of coral disease? - Coral Reefs

Characterizations of Philippine coral diseases are very limited. The two most common, ulcerative white spot disease (UWS) and massive Porites growth anomalies (MPGA), target the genus Porites, a dominant reef-building genus. This is the first investigation in the Philippines to detect positive...

link.springer.com

 

[Mortie31]

Here's a paper linking organic carbon and nutrients to coral disease. Not saying carbon dosing/nutrient addition is necessarily harmful, but overdoing it could lead to problems.

Do elevated nutrients and organic carbon on Philippine reefs increase the prevalence of coral disease? - Coral Reefs

Characterizations of Philippine coral diseases are very limited. The two most common, ulcerative white spot disease (UWS) and massive Porites growth anomalies (MPGA), target the genus Porites, a dominant reef-building genus. This is the first investigation in the Philippines to detect positive...

link.springer.com

Thx Dana, unfortuanatly i cant view the entire paper, but the abstract seems to suggest a link to organic carbon overdose being an issue just as Rowher postulated in his work

 

[Mortie31]

I run at about 15x turnover. I have no idea if this is too much or too little but it works for me.

Wow this is high, did you measure it or go off the pumps flow charts? What size tank do you have and what pumps do u use?

 

[Mortie31]

A much better protein skimmer first and foremost!

Isn’t the most TOC most skimmers can remove about 30%? So is bigger better?

 

[Mortie31]

It's different for each person and each set-up, and personal preference... That said, I try to keep my skimmer large and the turnover in the sump slow. Ideally a skimmer is turning over just a little less water per hour than the display. My reasoning for that is I want as much water going through the skimmer as possible before it returns to the tank, and without outpacing the return. I also feel that 3-5x the display size is around the sweet spot. I seem to be in the minority on this one though...

I’m not sure about this, the lower your flow rate through the sump, the more chance your skimmer is skimming the same water unless your using an external fed directly from the overflow, for peak efficiency doesn’t a skimmer need to be fed “dirty” Unskimmed water constantly especially given that they only remove upto 35% of TOC anyway. I’d argue that a higher flow through a sump would help maximise this. Again a very old Feldman article on skimmers but a good read if you’ve not read it before https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature

 

[Montiman]

I carbon dose on my tank and plan to on my next tank going up soon. I think what a lot of people miss is that there is not a one size fits all Reefing method.

What turned me on to carbon dosing was when I worked at an LFS where it was my job to maintain a 20ft long 500 gallon system with anemones, soft corals, and some small fish. I would water change 2-3 44 gallon brute trashcans a week to clean detritus but even after upping the water changes to every day I could not get nitrate below 100ppm. The BioLoad was massive we would get 100BTAs or LTAs at a time and they always looked best when you fed them plus 2-3% would die from shipping complications and this put an enormous amount of bioload on the system. There was no ammonia and nitrate as the sump had over 500lbs of live rock in it, but it got to the point where I couldn't do any more water changes even as a full time employee. Adding a fuge would mean finding a place to put a horse trough with a huge light like an H1200 or at the time a 400 watt halide. This was a substantial investment in space and money but instead I got a bottle of vodka and by dosing twice a week got the nitrates to 5ppm. I found by manually adding Vodka once per week I could maintain the Bioload and avoid the huge investment in a fuge, denitrator, or massive turf scrubber.

There are absolutely times where carbon dosing makes the most sense in a given aquarium system, but it is often over utilized. The modern fuge of the last 3-4 years has started to give carbon dosing a run for its money on most home systems but still consider someone like me when I was starting this hobby.

As an eighth grader I stated this hobby with the lowest imaginable budget, but I was willing to work and put in the care my animals needed. If I had a nitrate issue I could add a fuge, even a small hang on fuge with a basic light is likely at least couple hundred dollars likely more if you want a good one, I could buy a turf scrubber which is likely a similar price. I could DIY one which may or may not work well or last very long, I could spend a couple hundred on a sulfur nitrate reactor. I could buy more salt but at $50 a box or more it can get pricey, or I can get a bottle of No3Po4X for $20 and fix the problem. This is why Carbon Dosing sells and will continue to sell. It is a very simple method and can be scaled up or down very easily. You can mess it up but the barrier to entry is very low. This low barrier to entry is ultimately what gives it the biggest advantage over competing systems.

 

[road_runner]

I’m not sure about this, the lower your flow rate through the sump, the more chance your skimmer is skimming the same water unless your using an external fed directly from the overflow, for peak efficiency doesn’t a skimmer need to be fed “dirty” Unskimmed water constantly especially given that they only remove upto 35% of TOC anyway. I’d argue that a higher flow through a sump would help maximise this. Again a very old Feldman article on skimmers but a good read if you’ve not read it before https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature

Agreed and that was my point. I cannot think of any harm if you have flow above that threshold.