Is Carbon, Nitrate, and Phosphate Dosing Bad For the Hobby?

[maksim serebro]

One last question. I have about 2 inches of sand in the tank. Should I start very slowly removing it to help with nitrates?

 

[road_runner]

One last question. I have about 2 inches of sand in the tank. Should I start very slowly removing it to help with nitrates?

I would not. I like sand and think its beneficial. Vacume it during water change is effective..
That's my openion, I know there are many beautiful bare bottom tanks out there so am not saying its wrong..

 

[ZaneTer]

Another contentious question

I run bare bottom but in your case I would just stick to one change at a time.

 

[wareagle]

An old paper, I’m sure most of you have read it, however it postulates that there is a narrow margin of error for overdosing DOC that could directly kill corals, by causing to much of an increase of bacteria within the coral. As part of N-DOC testing triton measure organic and inorganic carbon, which could potentially give us an indication if we’re getting close to these levels of 2-10ppm as suggested by Rohwer

Feature Article: Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: an Initial Survey, Part I

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Ken and Kelly report on their work on Total Organic Carbon and how it relates to the reef aquarium.

www.advancedaquarist.com

Here's a video presentation Rowher did, it includes all the things they dosed to the coral and how only carbon killed the coral in his study, but raised N and P, temps, and lowered ph stressed them. He also goes over how algae kills coral, and lots of other great information. I'm getting a clam!

 

[road_runner]

Clams are awesome filterstion systems ha ha

 

[Ike]

What would you recommend to someone with no detectable phosphates and 80-100 nitrates? 25% water changes aren’t making a dent

A much better protein skimmer first and foremost!

 

[BoomCorals]

IMO some folks are looking for a quick way out of an issue. Whether it be high nutrients or algae issues. Some just can’t handle looking at the nuisance algae and will dump in anything to get rid of it. It amazes me how much people WANT to dose something. It’s like going to the doctor and the doc saying, well you can change your diet and exercise or you can take this pill. Some just want the easy fix and don’t see the long term impact.
Although the dosing may work, why mess with it when there’s an easier way? Yes, it's a tool that can be leveraged but it would be one of the last tools I pull out of the toolbox. Keeping the least amount of things in flux seems to help me keep things more stable and corals happy. Water changes and heaving feeding with heavy export has worked best for me. Full disclosure @Ike gave me a solid start in this hobby years ago and I appreciated his advice that cut through the conflicting BS I was reading online. It was hard as a newbie in the hobby to weed out who knew what they were talking about and who was just repeating. Much of the time people just pass on what they’ve heard, with the best intentions, unknowingly passing on poor advice.

When I first started in the hobby I would read as many TOM write ups as I could find. Much of the time there are very similar methods used and it was an easy way to know the advice was solid as the pictures were proof it worked. That said, we also have to experiment for ourselves and see what works best for us and that just takes time and lots of observation.

 

[ZaneTer]

A much better protein skimmer first and foremost!

I’m not sure I agree based upon my personal experience. I run a skimmer suited to 300g on my 180g it does little to nothing to remove nitrate. That being said my skimmer has saved me from an auto feeder malfunction.

 

[road_runner]

IMO some folks are looking for a quick way out of an issue. Whether it be high nutrients or algae issues. Some just can’t handle looking at the nuisance algae and will dump in anything to get rid of it. It amazes me how much people WANT to dose something. It’s like going to the doctor and the doc saying, well you can change your diet and exercise or you can take this pill. Some just want the easy fix and don’t see the long term impact.
Although the dosing may work, why mess with it when there’s an easier way? Yes, it's a tool that can be leveraged but it would be one of the last tools I pull out of the toolbox. Keeping the least about of things in flux seems to help me keep things more stable and corals happy. Water changes and heaving feeding with heavy export has worked best for me. Full disclosure @Ike gave me a solid start in this hobby years ago and I appreciated his advice that cut through the conflicting crap I was reading online. It was hard as a newbie in the hobby to weed out who knew what they were talking about and who was just repeating. Much of the time people just pass on what they’ve heard, with the best intentions, unknowingly passing on poor advice.

When I first started in the hobby I would read as many TOM write ups as I could find. Much of the time there are very similar methods used and it was an easy way to know the advice was solid as the pictures were proof it worked. That said, we also have to experiment for ourselves and see what works best for us and that just takes time and lots of observation.

Sadly this is true

Also such a blessing to have someone you can depend on when it come to advices in this hobby..
@Ike is awesome, I like his posts and approaches..

 

[Ike]

I’m not sure I agree based upon my personal experience. I run a skimmer suited to 300g on my 180g it does little to nothing to remove nitrate. That being said my skimmer has saved me from an auto feeder malfunction.

It will do nothing for nitrate, it will keep nitrate from building up by lowering ammonia. Lack of protein skimming could be a root cause for the build up of nitrate, but I suppose you have a point that it won't do much for the nitrate that has built up

 

[road_runner]

It will do nothing for nitrate, it will keep nitrate from building up by lowering ammonia. Lack of protein skimming could be a root cause for the build up of nitrate, but I suppose you have a point that it won't do much for the nitrate that has built up

The caveat i will add to this statment is good return flow rate. If return flow rate is not good enough powerful skimmer will not be efficient...
Return flow rate is so overlooked by reefers ...

 

[Ike]

IMO some folks are looking for a quick way out of an issue. Whether it be high nutrients or algae issues. Some just can’t handle looking at the nuisance algae and will dump in anything to get rid of it. It amazes me how much people WANT to dose something. It’s like going to the doctor and the doc saying, well you can change your diet and exercise or you can take this pill. Some just want the easy fix and don’t see the long term impact.
Although the dosing may work, why mess with it when there’s an easier way? Yes, it's a tool that can be leveraged but it would be one of the last tools I pull out of the toolbox. Keeping the least amount of things in flux seems to help me keep things more stable and corals happy. Water changes and heaving feeding with heavy export has worked best for me. Full disclosure @Ike gave me a solid start in this hobby years ago and I appreciated his advice that cut through the conflicting crap I was reading online. It was hard as a newbie in the hobby to weed out who knew what they were talking about and who was just repeating. Much of the time people just pass on what they’ve heard, with the best intentions, unknowingly passing on poor advice.

When I first started in the hobby I would read as many TOM write ups as I could find. Much of the time there are very similar methods used and it was an easy way to know the advice was solid as the pictures were proof it worked. That said, we also have to experiment for ourselves and see what works best for us and that just takes time and lots of observation.

Thanks for the insight and the kind words!

 

[Ike]

Sadly this is true

Also such a blessing to have someone you can depend on when it come to advices in this hobby..
@Ike is awesome, I like his posts and approaches..

Thanks man, very kind!

 

[road_runner]

Thanks man, very kind!

I meant it.you kind, helpful and generous. Rare qualities now days.
Stay gold ike

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I don’t measre N or P. In mature tanks, I dose 10 ml per 25G of tank volume. I have not cleaned glass in 2 weeks. Apprentice has work waiting on her.

The apprentice probably under an oak tree, taking a siesta.

 

[Ike]

The caveat i will add to this statment is good return flow rate. If return flow rate is not good enough powerful skimmer will not be efficient...
Return flow rate is so overlooked by reefers ...

Agreed, and a lot of people with too much turnover.

 

[road_runner]

Agreed, and a lot of people with too much turnover.

How would you define too much turnover and what harm would it do?

 

[ZaneTer]

I run at about 15x turnover. I have no idea if this is too much or too little but it works for me.

 

[road_runner]

I run at about 15x turnover. I have no idea if this is too much or too little but it works for me.

I cannot think of what can go wrong with too much flow that's why am asking ike.
More return rate will mean watwr go through sunp faster, at the end of the day skimmer had its flow rate and will have a watwr intake, since return flow is more than sump intake, sump will always get new water in for skimming.
The other angle would be filter socks..more flow must mean better..
Maybe am missing something, will wait for ike thoughts.

 

[ZaneTer]

By the way everyone I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion and exchange of ideas. There is great civil discussion and debate.

Thanks to all for being a part of it.