Instant Tank Cycle

[Garf]

What is new cycling science?

I've got this one figured out I think. It's a "Fish In cycle" that you are not allowed to test ammonia just in case you find it rises. It mistakenly accused Red sea and API test kits of massive inaccuracies and makes no apologies for the lack of understanding of acute ammonia toxicity in saltwater. It doesn't believe pH has an impact on free ammonia in reef tanks and finds anything other than assumptions made years ago to be false.

 

[brandon429]

@RoanokeReef agreed the back and forth is hard to follow without context.

Eli = the same person as Aquabiomics, the industry-changing company that does DNA testing of the water in our reef tanks to determine bacterial status

Where you are reading "Eli" throughout the thread, that was AB's avatar before the company was built which is now called Aquabiomics. Eli is AB.

I am against testing for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in reef tank cycling due to the problems listed above using conventional means (see post #158)

All the work I do, to show that Eli's statement wasn't correct in my opinion, is testless cycling--the opposite of what Eli recommended and the opposite of what Randy recommends regarding ammonia testing.

I cycle reef tanks on this site/other sites/without any testing and with a completely pure track record of safety, that's the #1 outcome nobody would have predicted would be possible if we were solely using just the old rules of cycling

those rules say you have to test to know if/ when a reef tank cycle is ready


But the new rules allow me to get the results I have on file and all future results without testing. We need places on the web that allow cyclers to consider better, freer options to get the job done

we do not have to test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to cycle a reef tank any longer

there are still objective measures we use for each reef to get the cycle ready, it's just not coming from test kits for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

we are using either visual cues on the rocks or from the tank description, or, for surfaces that don't have visual cues but still can be cycled we count the # of days the tank has been running to derive the cycle close date. The known completion timeframes come from well known cycle studies posted by people like Dr. Reef, or every cycling chart ever put into a book (10 days to ammonia dropping and not coming back up)


A hopeful impact to readers is they're able to save lots of money on reef tank cycles, and still be certain when the cycle is done using alternate means of verification, and they can aim all their concerns and efforts into disease prevention/management which is the real killer of our fish,


bad cycles are not killing fish anywhere in reefing, on any forum.

Since Eli didn't write that on his first post, and he's the microbiologist here, it left me wondering why



People who sell anything in this hobby to readers have the highest bar to write the most sound information, so he's in my focus for a long time, especially as his Ted talks build up.


no test cycling sure does work, and we don't get to hear back from him on the follow up explanation as to why it's working so far.

There has to be a balance for people that sell things to us in this hobby, something has to keep what they say in check so readers can have fair information to determine who they should pay for services and who they should not pay.

Why is it that when I search out Eli/Aquabiomics info I see the MACNA talks, I see the podcasts, the articles, the ads written about his testing services, the total buy-in from any reader about his services, but I can't see this thread?


Assessing fish disease risk % based on pathogen/ clades returned per sample is part of what aquabiomics sells

But I don't see this thread, from the #1 person I'd trust to tell me about captive marine fish disease and DNA testing:

Jay I’m wondering if you believe Aquabiomics testing validity

Do you believe AB for-charge testing is a way to identify presence of uronema in a reef tank? one drop of water, or a few, a couple swabs representing .0001% of a reef tanks biome is valid? How are we ensured the other unsampled portions don’t have the pathogen? I noticed that paying...

www.reef2reef.com

I think providing a balance of information on the utility of reef tank testing for microbes has its benefits. Any reader can see I'm formulating my opinions about AB testing from events here, from Randy's assessments about it in threads at the emergence of this tech within our hobby and from Jay's responses. I don't claim to understand enough about DNA sampling to exclude their opinions from the factor.

If Jay isn't relying on it to run his disease assessments and rescues, if I don't need aquabiomics testing to cycle any reef tank that will post for the job, if Randy isn't sold that sampling an ultra- small % of a reef tanks biota is a reliable indicator of its complete biota, where can searchers find that information balance?

In web threads, on cool sites who let nerds do what they do freely and much appreciated.



The main crew on this site who like to post in cycle threads have been doing so, and quite harshly lol, for ten years straight. Threads like these are what we do.

 

[thedon986]

An API Ammonia test kit is less than $10, what other amount of money is being saved by not testing?

 

[X-37B]

One month ago I added 150lbs of GLR that was delivered to my door in wet newspaper just like the 90's, lol.
This was premium rock and had bivalves, sponge, corals, etc.
I had to remove some dead bivalves and some sponge during week 1.
I did add 2 4oz bottles of Turbo Start bacteria to help with the ammonia related die off. For me this helps stabilize the system faster than letting it run its course when starting with rock that 24hrs earier was in the ocean.
I never test for ammonia or nitrite on any live rock setup.
Starting with cured live rock from an established system or lfs I would not add bacteria.
I started adding corals around day 20. Today is day 31 and I have already added 7 corals.
No3 is down to 25 and working its way down to my <5 range I like to run. Po4 is 0.1 today down from .5 2 weeks ago. I use small amounts of Phosgaurd.
I do run a ozone reactor from day two. This morning its 413 and cycling on/off around 400.
I have started all systems with live rock over the years so I have no experience with dead rock startups.

 

[brandon429]

@thedon986 that is good input.

I have threads where thousands of dollars in unneeded bottle bac purchases were completed based on people's interpretation of ammonia and nitrite tests

here's a few hundred bucks of people buying more bottle bac because of what their nitrite test kit said:

We should use the collective power of the chem forum to prove or deny the possibility of sustained .25 ammonia in reefing

Why does it matter if reef tanks can have stuck cycles? Because when you move homes you don't want to lose animals, cycling science needs precision and predictability in order to protect our tanks. perhaps an emergency setup is needed, no wait time permitted or If you are invited to show...

www.reef2reef.com

Randy has told us nitrite testing isn't required (in his 2006 article on nitrite in the reef tank) so that saves us 1 less param to wrestle with/pay for/make red herring reactions against. You can see those testers did not get Randy's message about nitrite, it was scaring them over and over in that roughshod example thread of where cycle testing habits causes wasted purchases.

So, who did tell the readers that nitrite is harmful and can stall?

maintaining the status quo here, someone who sells us things said it-



it's not the ten dollar test kit, its the multiple ten dollar bottles of bac they buy in response, and the lasting impact they took from false stuck cycles caused them to be so hesitant when handling the tank they weren't able to do basic things like tank relocations and upgrades without panic purchases or messing up the move.


there are big hidden impacts to old school cycling rules that need updating.

focusing on testing also excludes disease preps, find any cycling thread on this forum and post it/disease won't be a factor but readings for ammonia will for sure be.

I'm literally wanting to aim reader's concern into disease preps/reading in the disease forum for all their toils and studies. knowing the date the tank's cycle will be ready is the easy part, for any type of cycle.

nobody reading can show us a failed cycle in a display tank where the animals didn't live, but we can see disease issues wiping out bucketloads of fish any given day here. Old cycling science paints consequences that do not happen, and it does not tell us what the real risk is for new tanks.

 

[brandon429]

@X-37B

That type of cycle is the one kind that does have variability imparted to it, due to hitchhikers that are different load to load.

but

those rocks also have the fastest/highest ammonia command rate of any surface we use in reefing: those are knurled, aged, years matured highest-possible surface area we will ever see on reef rocks with the most diverse complement of bacteria we could ever want

it would take a lot of melting clams and tunicates to overcome that ability, so, pre removing them before they rot and leaving what we can see as pristine coralline reef rock with nothing to die absolutely makes that a skip cycle, using uncured ocean rocks.

thank you for posting that kind Sir. way to take command over the system and stock it right off the bat. that's 2024 cycling attitude.
B

 

[X-37B]

@X-37B

That type of cycle is the one kind that does have variability imparted to it, due to hitchhikers that are different load to load.

but

those rocks also have the fastest/highest ammonia command rate of any surface we use in reefing: those are knurled, aged, years matured highest-possible surface area we will ever see on reef rocks with the most diverse complement of bacteria we could ever want

it would take a lot of melting clams and tunicates to overcome that ability, so, pre removing them before they rot and leaving what we can see as pristine coralline reef rock with nothing to die absolutely makes that a skip cycle, using uncured ocean rocks.

thank you for posting that kind Sir. way to take command over the system and stock it right off the bat. that's 2024 cycling attitude.
B

Thanks. I find so many that make it so much harder than it needs to be. That also includes maintaining the system.

 

[brandon429]

Here's who else is in on the confidence trick

All reef shop owners

All reef tank exhibition demo tank owners, the various sellers at MACNA, reefapalooza et al

All sellers of anything microbiological in reefing somehow magically never ever ever ever stumble over cycles.

But the buyers? Confused to infinity. it's a very apparent sales gradient in my opinion.

of course I believe DNA testing has changed the hobby, I think over time, in future years we will be able to use it to accomplish things in a reef tank. He will be in first go on the evolving technology and Eli will be big in the coming changes, I acknowledge that part.

that fact won't change the same fact that we can look at a set of rocks and see if they're cycled.

that's what this thread has been turned into, a log of testless cycling jobs.

 

[sde1500]

Are you reviving this thread every 6 months? Lol

Right? Bumps threads to pat himself on the back....

just adding words to sound smart as in context they have no meaning

its this