Icp oes vs ms

[scotty333]

Anyone been suspicious about their icp analysis and done an ms to confirm ( different band of course so no cheating)
I ask because I’m curious to know if triton are blagging me into buying their products based on results
Some of you will know I keep getting icps with elevated barium and before I get busy with wcs or go down their route of al99 which creates more problems of maintaining any amount of po4 for the corals ( not bothered about dinos for now since I already have after bottoming out po4)
So, what’s the route here ?
As above or any other suggestions are welcome

 

[Reefing_addiction]

I use ATI ICP test. I haven’t cross confirmed with another lab. But might do that since it’s about time I did one again

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’d ignore nearly any barium results. Not because either is necessarily inaccurate, but it’s mostly a case of “so what”, IMO.

Is barium the only ion of interest in this question?

 

[scotty333]

I’d ignore nearly any barium results. Not because either is necessarily inaccurate, but it’s mostly a case of “so what”, IMO.

Is barium the only ion of interest in this question?

Cheers boss
Yes , I’m afraid that with monthly icps coming in with 100% elevation that in 2 months it’ll be double since I can’t find the source

I know it’s probably a rabbit hole not worth exploring but I have 70euro I don’t need and would love to write to triton haha

 

[Reefing_addiction]

Cheers boss
Yes , I’m afraid that with monthly icps coming in with 100% elevation that in 2 months it’ll be double since I can’t find the source

I know it’s probably a rabbit hole not worth exploring but I have 70euro I don’t need and would love to write to triton haha

if you do let us know!!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Cheers boss
Yes , I’m afraid that with monthly icps coming in with 100% elevation that in 2 months it’ll be double since I can’t find the source

I know it’s probably a rabbit hole not worth exploring but I have 70euro I don’t need and would love to write to triton haha

Well, I’d send it to Oceamo, but I would not expect the result to be greatly different.

 

[areefer01]

Well, I’d send it to Oceamo, but I would not expect the result to be greatly different.

Have you used Oceamo? Why would you recommend them over, say, ATI or Fauna Marin? If I was to guess it would be Oceamo interaction on the forum answering questions which gives confidence.

Not confrontational just wondering is all.

 

[scotty333]

Well, I’d send it to Oceamo, but I would not expect the result to be greatly different.

Lfs agreed on this

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Have you used Oceamo? Why would you recommend them over, say, ATI or Fauna Marin? If I was to guess it would be Oceamo interaction on the forum answering questions which gives confidence.

Not confrontational just wondering is all.

Yes, having confidence that the person running things knows what they are doing, coupled with using icp-ms for trace elements (which is where it matters) is the reason.

 

[areefer01]

Yes, having confidence that the person running things knows what they are doing, coupled with using icp-ms for trace elements (which is where it matters) is the reason.

Thanks. It would be nice if some of the other more widely used (generalization I know, but lets say ATI and Triton) would get more involved.

Not sure if this helps but here is my ATI ICP results for barium over time. I have the full list but since this is what was asked I just extracted that. I go back to 2018. The display was up before that but this is when I started ATI samples. July I sent in my last one as I don't really see why I keep doing them. Also first couple of years I was using ESV 2 part then switched to All For Reef. I couldn't say why the decline but maybe the difference in the two products or my corals are using more. I never really looked.


I do have two reports from Oceamo. I do not remember why I did those other than maybe it was new? At the time they gave a more personalized detailed report. Of course they can't do that anymore due to time and volume. I did the tests not to compare vendors but since I had them I tried to align as close as I could. Dates do not match so not apple to apple in that view.

Just data if it helps. I think the lads/lasses over in the Moonshiners use Oceamo.

 

[Reefing_addiction]

Thanks. It would be nice if some of the other more widely used (generalization I know, but lets say ATI and Triton) would get more involved.

Not sure if this helps but here is my ATI ICP results for barium over time. I have the full list but since this is what was asked I just extracted that. I go back to 2018. The display was up before that but this is when I started ATI samples. July I sent in my last one as I don't really see why I keep doing them. Also first couple of years I was using ESV 2 part then switched to All For Reef. I couldn't say why the decline but maybe the difference in the two products or my corals are using more. I never really looked.


I do have two reports from Oceamo. I do not remember why I did those other than maybe it was new? At the time they gave a more personalized detailed report. Of course they can't do that anymore due to time and volume. I did the tests not to compare vendors but since I had them I tried to align as close as I could. Dates do not match so not apple to apple in that view.

Just data if it helps. I think the lads/lasses over in the Moonshiners use Oceamo.

Moonshiners uses ATI

Love the spread sheet
I’m big on those
Don’t have enough test to really do what you did but maybe I’ll start one anyway

 

[scotty333]

100 ugl of barium is exactly what I have , so it’s spot on then ?

 

[areefer01]

100 ugl of barium is exactly what I have , I see the graph declines, are you water changing?

Yes. I am not consistent but try to do water changes between 2 to 4 weeks. I use Tropic Marin Pro Reef. I dose All For Reef and recently started ESV Transition Elements. My display is 210 gallons with a 20 gallon refugium (more of a coral and rock junk drawer).

 

[areefer01]

I should note that I really don't use the results other than to visualize trends. It is data I otherwise would not have access to. In my case I'm not sure it made financial sense as I'm not dosing anything specific. If that makes sense.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Moonshiners uses ATI

Love the spread sheet
I’m big on those
Don’t have enough test to really do what you did but maybe I’ll start one anyway

They also use Oceamo.

Reef Moonshiner's ICP-MS Test

Reef Moonshiner's ICP-MS Test kit

andremueller.e-junkie.com

 

[scotty333]

I should note that I really don't use the results other than to visualize trends. It is data I otherwise would not have access to. In my case I'm not sure it made financial sense as I'm not dosing anything specific. If that makes sense.

Perfectly thanks that does add some comfort into in a way I mean pre icp we all run successful tanks
I wonder if the bandwagon was spotted or its a step in the right direction
I mean for non water changers and water changers alike because of the contamination element

 

[rtparty]

I wouldn’t waste another dollar on ICP testing from any company to be honest. Only one company has shown any data when it comes to results and accuracy. That’s Oceamo. However, in the end you always end up in the same spot: water changes and maybe dose some of the most common trace elements. Both of these can be done proactively and save you a lot of money.

I ran Reef Moonshiners for right around 3 years. I eventually ditched it, went back to water changes, and used the BRS balling hybrid method. I had a few ATI ICP tests left so I used them and my numbers were spot on after a year of no ICP testing or special dosing.

 

[scotty333]

Here’s what I have to say about barium
It took me ages to write it so please honour my experiences

Yes, barium can be toxic to sea creatures, depending on its concentration and the specific form in which it is present. Barium occurs naturally in the environment, often in the form of barium sulfate, which is relatively insoluble and less toxic. However, soluble forms of barium, such as barium chloride or barium nitrate, can be harmful.

When barium enters aquatic environments, it can affect the health of marine organisms in several ways:

1. **Bioaccumulation**: Barium can accumulate in the tissues of marine organisms, potentially leading to toxic effects, especially if it reaches higher trophic levels through the food chain.

2. **Toxicity to Specific Species**: Some marine species, such as fish, mollusks, and crustaceans, are more sensitive to barium exposure. Elevated barium levels can impair growth, reproduction, and survival.

3. **Effects on Water Chemistry**: In high concentrations, soluble barium can alter the chemical balance of the water, impacting the overall health of the marine ecosystem.

4. **Long-term Environmental Impact**: Even at lower concentrations, chronic exposure to barium can have long-term effects on marine life and ecosystem health.

Therefore, while barium in its natural, insoluble forms is generally less toxic, its soluble compounds can pose significant risks to sea creatures, particularly in contaminated environments.

 

[Reefing_addiction]

They also use Oceamo.

Reef Moonshiner's ICP-MS Test

Reef Moonshiner's ICP-MS Test kit

andremueller.e-junkie.com

That must be new lol

Been awhile since I’ve been on their site

Good to know!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Therefore, while barium in its natural, insoluble forms is generally less toxic, its soluble compounds can pose significant risks to sea creatures, particularly in contaminated environments.

When it come to toxicity of a given species, concentration is king. Concentration takes copper from a critically needed trace element at low levels to a killer at high levels.

What concentrations do you observe?

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jerry-Neff/publication/279719532_Chapter_4_Barium_in_the_Ocean/links/5a6b5bc7aca2725b1c1e600b/Chapter-4-Barium-in-the-Ocean.pdf

The studies described above show that, due to the low solubility of barite in seawater, the equilibrium concentration of barium in solution in seawater can not rise high enough to represent a toxicity risk to marine organisms. Solutions containing dissolved organic complexes of barium may be toxic to marine organisms. Some produced waters contain high concentrations of organic acids (up to 10 million ug/L: Table 1), such as acetic acid, that could form weak complexes with the barium in seawater. Such complexes are not expected to persist long in the ocean and would be diluted rapidly to low concentrations in the receiving water environment (Neff and Sauer, 1995).


Dissolved barium, as barium acetate, at concentrations of 100 and 900 ug/L inhibited embryonic development, particularly shell calcification, and resulted in development of abnormal embryos, in mussels Mytilus californianus (Spangenberg and Cherr, 1996).


Barium was introduced into exposure media as barium acetate, because it was the only form of barium that did not precipitate in seawater at concentrations of 10,000 ug/L or