"Ich Management"

[Jay Hemdal]

I've seen it said that after a certain length of time if nothing is added to the tank, an ich infestation will burn itself out. Any truth to that?

Aside from fallow periods where NO fish are in the tank, ich tends to persist for long periods as a sub-acute infection. Just how long that can be, nobody knows for sure. I've had one case in a large 900 gallon reef, where I employed Ich Management and it went into remission after about 4 months and we never saw it again (the tank was dismantled about 8 years later). In other reports, ich infections have been seen to return in tanks up to at least a year....

Here is the thread on fallow periods:

45 Day Fallow periods

I've been doing some research into the "76 day fallow period". I never heard of that prior to coming to Reef2Reef this past summer. I had always used 32 days as the maximum time for a tomont to remain viable under tropical conditions, and then I would round up to 45 days to help ensure that...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Paul B]

ich tends to persist for long periods as a sub-acute infection. Just how long that can be, nobody knows for sure.

This is actually the means where fish stay immune in a tank. The parasites themselves force the fish into immunity. If the fish never encountered any more parasites, any immunity to them they have will wane over time differing with different species of fish.

Thats why we Humans get booster shots.

 

[Rjukan]

My ich management consists of a wide array of foods including black worms, white worms, TDO pellets, frozen foods like LRS, Rods, fish eggs, squid, spirulina brine, and PE mysis. Along with regular water changes, and 24/7 skimming.

In my experience whats just as important, if not moreso, is monitoring stress levels of the fish themselves. I know there is ich in my tank, and thankfully it's never killed a fish, but it will flare up if there is any fish to fish stress. That doesn't even need to be active aggression/biting, just a little flaring will get a dusting of spots on my coral beauty (the aggressor), and his usual target the royal gramma. They have both gotten to a point visually that I felt either one could spiral and die. But I like to think that because of their diet, and the aquascape, they were able to manage the infection and both returned to perfect health without any meds. But.. after this episode and the constant stress the CB would cause to itself, and the rest of the tank, I removed it and it spent a couple weeks in the "penalty box" which is my mantis tank lol. After reintroducing it to the display, stress levels went way down, and there hasn't been any signs of ich. If it starts to be a bully again, I will remove it because I feel like the stress is a catalyst for infection.

I also really feel like the environment is another cause of stress, and that's why people with new tanks, bright white rocks, and minimal hiding spots have a lot of trouble with fish getting sick. They are in a constant state of stress, then add any fish to fish stress on top of it and it's no wonder why so many die.

I'm not kidding myself to believe I "beat ich" but I like to think my current inhabitants have a strong resistance to it. Maybe not quite "immune" yet, but like when a healthy human contracts an illness, they will fare better than someone who is in poor health with high stress.

I know it's not for everyone, but I give @Paul B a lot of credit for his views and methods. Thanks for all of the insight, and enjoyable posts.

 

[Paul B]

If you keep your tank immune like probably most of the old timers do, you will never have to worry about diseases as it is a non-issue. Immune fish are just like they are in the sea,,,,,Happy and healthy.

 

[Naekuh]

If you keep your tank immune like probably most of the old timers do, you will never have to worry about diseases as it is a non-issue. Immune fish are just like they are in the sea,,,,,Happy and healthy.

But there are some fish that you just can not build the immunity to, and will constantly get it like a eye sore every now and then.

Will it kill them?

Sometimes yes and sometimes no. Your absolutely correct about the immunity except when it comes to captive tangs.

But i BET you, if you had ich, and you did not run fallow, you throw in a Arcanthus sp. Tang... like a powder blue, or achillies, it will gaurentee 100% get ich every now and then, and just drive you insane.

 

[Paul B]

But i BET you, if you had ich, and you did not run fallow, you throw in a Arcanthus sp. Tang... like a powder blue, or achillies, it will gaurentee 100% get ich every now and then, and just drive you insane.

My Hippo tangs normally live about 10 years and I also have another tang, I forgot his name....Maybe Charlie. Tangs are also no problem, I just am not crazy about them because they are to common.

Oh it's a tomini tang.





I guess I need to get some fish which are harder to keep.

Maybe I will get a fluke and see if he gets flukes.

 

[Naekuh]

Ahh that is one beautiful CBB...

 

[GARRIGA]

Playing in mud builds immunity. Playing in a plastic bubble might be disastrous day you come out and meet the world and all it's glory and pain. That's my thought process and why I'm aiming for pathogen maintenance vs eradication knowing a rock or invert carrying pathogens might somehow make it in without full QT. Gotta believe the ocean is full of ich and other pathogens yet those not meant long for this life succumb and those that evolved to build immunity go on. Whether that immunity is permanent or short lived is irrelevant. Fact immunity can be obtained all I'm concerned with. I'm too old to sweat the details and as I get older that attention span keeps getting shorter.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Playing in mud builds immunity. Playing in a plastic bubble might be disastrous day you come out and meet the world and all it's glory and pain. That's my thought process and why I'm aiming for pathogen maintenance vs eradication knowing a rock or invert carrying pathogens might somehow make it in without full QT. Gotta believe the ocean is full of ich and other pathogens yet those not meant long for this life succumb and those that evolved to build immunity go on. Whether that immunity is permanent or short lived is irrelevant. Fact immunity can be obtained all I'm concerned with. I'm too old to sweat the details and as I get older that attention span keeps getting shorter.

"Playing in mud builds immunity" - but not if you get tetanus!

The trouble with immunity is that the host must first survive the insult. In many cases, fish diseases in aquariums do not allow for that (Amyloodinium for example).

 

[GARRIGA]

"Playing in mud builds immunity" - but not if you get tetanus!

The trouble with immunity is that the host must first survive the insult. In many cases, fish diseases in aquariums do not allow for that (Amyloodinium for example).

Why we get tetanus shots. I have. Every ten years.

Yet that’s not the concern here. I’m being specific to those pathogens which in nature are encountered yet at low enough frequency that those who survived the infection then acquire immunity. Were that not the case I have to believe there would be no fish.

Plus isn’t it fair to assume all if not most pathogens in the hobby introduced from that taken from our oceans although organisms not evolved around said pathogens might have less ability to become somewhat immune.

Reality is most of us don’t practice strict QT of all life and items introduced. How often are CUC ran FOLLOW for 72 plus days prior to introduction? Rocks? New plug with one inch costing more than my first tank?

Today in the keys and around Florida we have massive die offs of fish and in particular endangered sawfish. There doesn’t seem to be an answer as to cause and yet I’m pretty sure CUC collectors keep collecting and fear perhaps this strange illness likely introduced by human waste or agriculture will find it’s way into the hobby. Similar to tetanus. Doesn’t appear immunity can build and in this case best practice might be to avoid introducing anything from the keys.

Point being that as to that already in the hobby where immunity can assist. I believe best approach for most is reducing the pathogen load therefore allowing the likelihood life gets infected, survives and continues on. Some life won’t because some life wasn’t meant to exist in captivity. Whether it’s collection practices or travel time or containment or not having built the ability to fight off new pathogens or a myriad of other concerns the fact is we kill lots before it ever gets placed in our tanks. Hoping to keep a plastic bubble around them I don’t believe is either pragmatic or reasonable. Yet at some point might turn out some sawfish are either naturally immune or can build immunity otherwise that species might finally go way of the do do bird.

Plus I plan to keep that which can’t be treated with copper, for example. In other words. Can’t be 100% assured that I introduce won’t be the source of future problems. I think that is just futile. Not saying we can’t try our best but in the end I’m playing it safe and overall working to reduce the unknown introduction and it’s potential affect. I’m also not adding new CUC until I’ve figured out how that might be compromised. At least not that which may have been sourced from the keys.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Why we get tetanus shots. I have. Every ten years.

Yet that’s not the concern here. I’m being specific to those pathogens which in nature are encountered yet at low enough frequency that those who survived the infection then acquire immunity. Were that not the case I have to believe there would be no fish.

Plus isn’t it fair to assume all if not most pathogens in the hobby introduced from that taken from our oceans although organisms not evolved around said pathogens might have less ability to become somewhat immune.

Reality is most of us don’t practice strict QT of all life and items introduced. How often are CUC ran FOLLOW for 72 plus days prior to introduction? Rocks? New plug with one inch costing more than my first tank?

Today in the keys and around Florida we have massive die offs of fish and in particular endangered sawfish. There doesn’t seem to be an answer as to cause and yet I’m pretty sure CUC collectors keep collecting and fear perhaps this strange illness likely introduced by human waste or agriculture will find it’s way into the hobby. Similar to tetanus. Doesn’t appear immunity can build and in this case best practice might be to avoid introducing anything from the keys.

Point being that as to that already in the hobby where immunity can assist. I believe best approach for most is reducing the pathogen load therefore allowing the likelihood life gets infected, survives and continues on. Some life won’t because some life wasn’t meant to exist in captivity. Whether it’s collection practices or travel time or containment or not having built the ability to fight off new pathogens or a myriad of other concerns the fact is we kill lots before it ever gets placed in our tanks. Hoping to keep a plastic bubble around them I don’t believe is either pragmatic or reasonable. Yet at some point might turn out some sawfish are either naturally immune or can build immunity otherwise that species might finally go way of the do do bird.

Plus I plan to keep that which can’t be treated with copper, for example. In other words. Can’t be 100% assured that I introduce won’t be the source of future problems. I think that is just futile. Not saying we can’t try our best but in the end I’m playing it safe and overall working to reduce the unknown introduction and it’s potential affect. I’m also not adding new CUC until I’ve figured out how that might be compromised. At least not that which may have been sourced from the keys.

I seriously doubt that wild fish develop any useful immunity to parasites - the ones that get sick enough, get eaten. In the winter in Florida, during cold fronts, fish can be seen dying from ich.
I once calculated the fish biomass of the ocean - I’m not 100% certain of the numbers, but it worked out to be equal to one 3” clownfish in 20,000 gallons of water. In that scenario, the propagule pressure is simply too weak to start an epizootic as so often seen in aquariums.

 

[Paul B]

I seriously doubt that wild fish develop any useful immunity to parasites -

Thats because the ocean isn't set up correctly to house fish.

 

[GARRIGA]

I seriously doubt that wild fish develop any useful immunity to parasites - the ones that get sick enough, get eaten. In the winter in Florida, during cold fronts, fish can be seen dying from ich.
I once calculated the fish biomass of the ocean - I’m not 100% certain of the numbers, but it worked out to be equal to one 3” clownfish in 20,000 gallons of water. In that scenario, the propagule pressure is simply too weak to start an epizootic as so often seen in aquariums.

My understanding being that overcrowding why diseases spread quickly in captivity. Both with fish and reptiles where I have some background as well as in general. All I'm suggesting is that best combat that by reducing the sheer volume of potential infections. You've stated that exposure and survival leads to attained immunity with ich which dissipates if no longer in contact with ich. Why I aim to reduce the pathogen load vs eradication which the latter to me is futile for the facts presented previously. Not every item we place in our displays goes through thorough and proper QT to eradicate all ailments that normally affect what we keep.

Now we have fish dying in the keys and mainly the shallows for which no cause has been identified and I'm not talking about ich. Fact is because of the chemicals and unbalances we humans create around the globe where our critters are collected that we don't know what next ailment will persist. Not knowing what's coming means we have no clue how to medicate or QT for it.

As for wild fish not obtaining immunity and just becoming a Big Mac, you know better than I yet that's not what I've learned and still in my approach I solve it by making it irrelevant in that I minimize the volume of potential infections for which we both agree that survival leads to some form of acquired immunity and to me whether it's permanent or temporary being academic in that my sole goal and focus is reducing volume because I strongly believe eradication is not feasible or practical for most.

Was at RAP this weekend. Lots of fish and corals heading to new homes. Speaking just of fish. How many of those went through proper QT prior to show and how many did post because I know of no LFS that does proper QT including those I dealt with in the 90s and the various wholesalers I frequented. Sad the buyer must go through this process (other options is paying high prices from those that do so which is an option yet I'm still not assuming that is 100%) and why I'm being pragmatic because knowing myself there will be that one addition I rushed from pure ignorance, inability to identify an illness or just threw caution to the wind thinking where I bought it from had guaranteed full QT and treatment as needed might have slightly slipped and let something slip. I'm just being proactive to the fact being human means carp just happens.

Just to be clear. I'm not opposed to QT and in the process of designing a nuclear option to eradicate all that I don't want to live but at the same time I'm not letting that create a false hope and I'm proceeding with my main as if I had done zero QT and/or something meant for disposal did live and just hedging my bets. The latter being more pragmatic for most hobbyist just because we are human and impatient and most likely lack the knowledge. I myself do not have a PHD in fish disease or dino or lots of other things we don't need or want.

On a side note, would be interesting if those well funded sent Biome style test kits to a diversified group of hobbyist to identify what lives amongst their prized possessions and perhaps that can further advance the hobby because I'm betting most aquarist have displays far removed in practice from large aquariums and we might discover the most successful are void of pathogens or contain a mass small enough to not have cause concerns which would then suggest the life within designated as worthy of living either evaded contact or must have developed immunity. I might be wrong but I'm betting on the latter.

 

[Doctorgori]

Just for sample: I went decades without seeing a drop of ich, then in the last 10yrs I’ve lost dozens of fish to ich or velvet.

my take is new(er) additions are less resistant regardless of family/genera, whereas the older fish seemed more resistant…..

outlier/exceptions being clowns, and marine bettas ( more resistance) outliers and tangs (less resistant) ich outliers

I have serious doubts you can totally eradicate ich from tanks without meds or adherence to all but the strictest protocols (unless you go years without adding a single snail, coral or water splash)

 

[Paul B]

I strongly believe eradication is not feasible or practical for most.

I agree and will add that ich eradication is counter productive and destructive. You are trying to eliminate something fish evolved with and are perfectly capable of dealing with with no trouble or energy being lost.

Fish in the sea and in a tank need parasites to remain healthy and immune to parasites. If that were not true, my tank and all other immune tanks would not exist.

It doesn't matter how many parasites I have in my tank, the fish immunity will and do grow to repel the parasites naturally as they were designed to do by someone else besides me.

Diseases for me and many immune tanks set up correctly and fed right are a non issue and have been for about 48 years.

Does anyone have a fully quarantined "home" tank that have not had a single case of a communicable disease in that time?

 

[GARRIGA]

I agree and will add that ich eradication is counter productive and destructive. You are trying to eliminate something fish evolved with and are perfectly capable of dealing with with no trouble or energy being lost.

Fish in the sea and in a tank need parasites to remain healthy and immune to parasites. If that were not true, my tank and all other immune tanks would not exist.

It doesn't matter how many parasites I have in my tank, the fish immunity will and do grow to repel the parasites naturally as they were designed to do by someone else besides me.

Diseases for me and many immune tanks set up correctly and fed right are a non issue and have been for about 48 years.

Does anyone have a fully quarantined "home" tank that have not had a single case of a communicable disease in that time?

Been collecting and breeding reptiles better of three plus decades. Learned long ago that combining species from different localities could spell disaster because now each exposed to that they didn't evolve with yet that's exactly what we do in our aquatic environments. Might explain why some species don't fair well in the hobby or not. All I know is that based on my experience. Stress seems to be the number one killer to which I attribute compromised immune system. You're approach how I've evolved to keep reptiles. Stress free within reason and fed well. No medications. Sick fend for themselves or seize to exist. Don't just want pretty. Need healthy and especially because I breed and sell my genetics for which I believe healthy being the first qualifier.

Doing more research on your gut loading to fight off infections. Not sure I'm going to sell the wife on white worms in the fridge, however

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thats because the ocean isn't set up correctly to house fish.

I agree and will add that ich eradication is counter productive and destructive. You are trying to eliminate something fish evolved with and are perfectly capable of dealing with with no trouble or energy being lost.

Fish in the sea and in a tank need parasites to remain healthy and immune to parasites. If that were not true, my tank and all other immune tanks would not exist.

It doesn't matter how many parasites I have in my tank, the fish immunity will and do grow to repel the parasites naturally as they were designed to do by someone else besides me.

Diseases for me and many immune tanks set up correctly and fed right are a non issue and have been for about 48 years.

Does anyone have a fully quarantined "home" tank that have not had a single case of a communicable disease in that time?

Paul - YES! I used the quarantine method employed here to stock our 185,000 gallon tropical marine system back in 2014. To date, there have been NO disease issues in that system for ANY parasitic disease with the exception of a species' specific gill fluke on a spotted eagle ray that we did not quarantine (the disease isn't contagious to other species). So - no ich, velvet, flukes, Uronema, Brooklynella at all!

 

[GARRIGA]

Paul - YES! I used the quarantine method employed here to stock our 185,000 gallon tropical marine system back in 2014. To date, there have been NO disease issues in that system for ANY parasitic disease with the exception of a species' specific gill fluke on a spotted eagle ray that we did not quarantine (the disease isn't contagious to other species). So - no ich, velvet, flukes, Uronema, Brooklynella at all!

Was the water tested to confirm the pathogens don't exist? Curious if immunity why no outbreaks vs prevention the cure. I ask assuming these Biome type test are accurate and dependable and I'm assuming you guys would already be running them and just seeking knowledge.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Was the water tested to confirm the pathogens don't exist? Curious if immunity why no outbreaks vs prevention the cure. I ask assuming these Biome type test are accurate and dependable and I'm assuming you guys would already be running them and just seeking knowledge.

That's splitting hairs - NO epizootics in a decade is pretty clearly a definitive result. We see ALL these disease at different times with fish in our quarantine systems, but they are dealt with there, and have not made it out into our main system. The method works well, that's what matters.

 

[Paul B]

Paul - YES! I used the quarantine method employed here to stock our 185,000 gallon tropical marine system back in 2014.

Jay my friend, I knew you would say that thats why I said:

Does anyone have a fully quarantined "home" tank that have not had a single case of a communicable disease in that time?

With the emphasis on "home". Your 185,000 gallon tank is not exactly a "home" tank as fish would not be stressed in that tank and the fish think they are in the sea.

If you did not quarantine that tank, I doubt you would have any fish die from parasites as I have never seen a fish in the sea dying from parasites under "normal" conditions and I have spent about 400 hours underwater. Overheating, typhoons where fresh water fills the bays and an abundance of RAP music will stress fish no matter where they are and they would die from something.

But immune fish such as many of us have will never die from a communicable disease "under normal conditions". If the house goes on fire, well maybe they will die, but not from parasites or as I keep saying, my tank would not exist.