How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

[brandon429]

From page one onward we've discussed disease vectoring here in place of cycling concerns, that's our unique angle

Adding random guess animals to a tank from a pet store hoping they might work on aiptasia, when we can easily search out threads where they didn't, is a hesitant and indirect way and a direct disease risk to the entire fish population of any system: i don't want guess animals that skipped fallow preps advised to readers here that's for any other aiptasia thread.

This thread is disease import conscious and direct- action based in every way. We never hesitate or guess. That's what allows us to study alternate methods the masses won't use in cycling and now for aiptasia work.

 

[Dburr1014]

@brandon429,
No arguments...
Those that failed with nudies, I 100% believe they somehow didn't add them correctly or didn't give them enough time to work. Adding in daylight with wrasse or not an army of them or simply giving up on 1 week.
I also believe that nothing is 100%. There are always stragglers. Always 1,2 a few left over.
To replace all the rock will be costly.
To do the work you are asking will take weeks. I myself, would get tired after a few days and give up.
Implementing nudies again and letting them do there thing and then hunting down the leftovers to rasp off I believe would be the best coarse of action in this work tank.

Cheers and happy reefing.
Off my soap box.
Carry on.

 

[Mwatts12]

Thank you. Sorry to hijack @brandon429 I thought the rip clean would be best action.

I will start a thread to get ideas and clarify how to not lose acros or stress out the population too much. If I have to restart with cured rock. It’s worth it at this point.

 

[brandon429]

I think it would be best to rock swap. If you elect to skip cycle change out we want that job done here/ cycle control thread/ there are very specific ways of changing out fully running sps systems without bleaching them I love those jobs, lots of $ on the line

The right rock to use in place is from a pet store, from a container marked live rock, with coralline + pods and brittle stars and life forms on the live rock. Not ocean rock mailed to you: this kind of rock from our other thread on skip cycle setups

A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

This is a testless cycling thread, we don't want ammonia testing here for any job if possible, because we are teaching reefers/readers that moving live rocks system to system does not restart the cycle: many in our community don't understand that rule and feel that any tank being setup simply...

www.reef2reef.com

*maybe we can do some of your rocks the right way to retain them then swap out the worst ones.

From updated cycling science threads: you don't even need all the live rock you have, each reef tank can lose a good degree of its live rock and have no cycle harm. There's some degree we could remove and not even put back

 

[brandon429]

Summary of the last three years of this thread, 41 pages of jobs all using the same meter: counting the number of days a given setup has had water, feed and added bacteria in it to discern cycle close date

no nitrite testing

certainly no ammonia testing has factored for us: no crashed tanks or dead fish either

we trust the major brands of bottled bacteria to do their job here, and our proof has been that nobody posts back: hey you killed my fish with your ammonia guessing




and now, some payoff. here's a VERY detailed study from Taricha in the chem forum on cycling ability of major bottle bac brands

whats happening by day ten?

Not all Cycling Bacteria are created equal. Who's who, and what do they need?

(post 3 updated with procedure) Procedure Part 1 - Ammonia only: This - Part 1 - is meant to be pretty restrictive to clearly distinguish those sources with and without classic chemoautotrophic nitrifiers. Bacteria products that don't process ammonia under these conditions will have their...

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***one addendum he's caught that we haven't been doing**

as backup: including a ground up pinch of fish food provides carbon, phosphate that some cycling strains in a bottle need for activation beyond just the common dose of ammonia.


reason we've survived that missing key starter in some cycles-
-Dr. Tims, biospira and Fritz don't need it. ammonia only activates them, he shows, and those are the bulk of cycling bac used here just by sheer market luck share.
-volume, dilution and initial bioload % = nobody is cramming in six queen angelfish here. we're pretty much two clowns and a couple gobies for most cycles, and people tend to feed fish they buy/so that's a lucky stroke if they weren't using the big three for cycling.
-inherent pH protection: new setups tend to run lower on pH which prevents free ammonia from being harmful, that can be at play.

adding a pinch of fish food isn't going to harm, alter or stop a big 3 brand cycle so by extension simply including a pinch of fish food in any bottled cycle is fine. the protein in fish food also breaks down into ammonia (via resident contamination bacteria found in any home aquarium setting no matter how new) should none be initially added. by day ten it's all going to balance just fine.

 

[AyoItsRocco]

I have to say what an awesome thread to read and I cant wait to try this with my new tank when it arrives! Thanks for such an awesome write up!

 

[Thehogfather]

This is a super interesting thread. I’m going to be starting a new system in a couple weeks so the info is helpful.

It’s no shocker that the API kits are no good at indicating when a tank is cycled. But aside from the seneye, are are you familiar with any kits that can accurately detect/indicate the absence of ammonia or nitrite? Are there applications where it still makes sense to test for ammonia such as in quarantine systems where ammonia buildup is more of a concern and what is the best way to monitor ammonia levels in those circumstances?

 

[brandon429]

For sure many people control the api kit very well
Garf is doing a great job in his thread in the experiments forum

Fritzyme 9 modified cycle

Thought I’d go “live bacteria” route for cycling a QT as the wife is itching to get a few fish in her tank. The most available bacteria by me was Fritzyme 9, so that’s what I went with. Tank, ceramic rock, heater, Circulation pump were all bleached for 24 hrs then allowed to dry for 24 hrs...

www.reef2reef.com

What I like about his thread above is we can use estimates off it to run quarantine setups without testing for cycle establishment

If we pile some surface area in the center like that, a roughly equal amount, we can do the ground up fish food trick + 10 days wait using fritz or Dr Tims or biospira bacteria and it'll be cycled- no verification needed per the repeat setups in our thread and per his action findings using clear api testing shown

When fish are in the qt system as mentioned above i can agree the common seachem alert badge is decent for most purposes, enact the safety water change if it shows a marked rise in a short period of time. We still find error badge tests occasionally on some display setups, where it reads alert when there can't be an ammonia alert, but that's rare and they're what I'd recommend for qt + bioload ammonia management and action timing (when to change water)

As a side note, Garf shows that even in a reduced surface area setting, in a very new filter bacteria setting, even a large dose of peroxide didn't do anything to undo the cycle. That's helpful in separate peroxide threads but it was neat his thread was able to show dual benefits / accurate api testing and handy peroxide verification

 

[AyoItsRocco]

So I'm starting my Evo 13.5 in the next couple of weeks but want to get my cycling plan right. Sorry, I know this has most likely been repeated a million times but I just want to make sure its correct since this is only my 2nd tank that will be cycled. So essentially from what page 1 said, you are essentially using bottle bac (I've decided to go with Dr. Tims one and only), Ground up fish flakes, and then let it do its thing for 10 days, then do a near full water change? If so, then thats crazy how easy it is to get it running.

 

[brandon429]

agreed it really works that way, because the bottle bac can carry fish on day one even without any wait. Dr Tims is the #1 fish-in first day cycling bac used, tens of thousands of searchable jobs where the fish do fine on day one. its not the fastest bacteria made, fritz is, but that Dr Tims is fast enough to work immediately as added in suspension because a couple of clownfish with very light daily feeding isn't that much load when spread out in a new reef tank's dilution. the fish aren't burned by ammonia, they act normal and feed normally.

the risk you take in the current plan is skipping disease preps for the fish.

our ten day wait simply takes bacteria that can easily work from being dosed in suspension on day one, and gives them ten days to plate on surfaces as that's a more ideal cycle that is immune to water changes/they're stuck on surfaces.

when you stock the fish from a pet store into the tank, whatever diseases they host are immediately transmitted into the tank as well so it's taking quite a risk to use quick fish stocking even though our cycling approach will do that safely.

if you want the tightest disease prevention, stock in this reverse order:

Has anyone done coral/inverts only and no fish at first?

Fish seem to be the main cause of disruption in a display tank, given the current circumstances in the hobby with pests (ich, velvet, parasites, etc.). I have been in this hobby for 18 years, and the amount of pests that are showing up lately is much more (could also be the fact that we have...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[vdubers]

interesting thread thanks for sharing all the info. I’ve been reading through but typically I have set my tank up in a strange way.

Setting up a new 160gal tank.
6.8.23 Added salt water and new dry rock
Also moved around 4kg live rock from my sump in my old tank (2 years) to the new DT.
8.8.23 added ammonia dosing to 2ppm. Tested with api showing 2ppm.
10.8.23 api showing 1ppm.
11.8.23 added 50kg new sand. Cup of old 2 year sand added to new DT to seed. Api showing 1ppm. Also added some bottle bac and added prime to dechlorinate any water left from rinsing the sand. Also added an additional 2kg live rock from old tank DT.
12.8.23 api 1ppm. Found an old expired salifert test this showed 0ppm ammonia.
13.8.23 api showing 1ppm also tested old tank api showing 0ppm.
14.8.23 added double dose of api quick start bottle bac. Api showing 1ppm.
15.8.23 Api showing 1ppm added more media from the sump.

Yes I did things strangely! Guessing my cycle just isn’t gone through the motions yet and to give it another week maybe?

I had hoped the live rock would have sped things along but appreciate it’s only been 7 days with ammonia present and not a lot of live rock compared to dry rock.

During this time I tested nitrites and nitrates every now and again with api kit and both are reading 0.

What is interesting is the little snails and limpets etc that are on the live rock from the other tank DT seem to be doing fine?

Thanks

 

[brandon429]

The tests aren’t factored because that’s not a seneye and this is a testless cycle thread, it helps avoid false stall confusion as the old rules have us dependent on non digital ammonia kits to know when it’s done

we see those readings you posted in four year old reefs sometimes when using api, Red Sea ammonia, they cause confusion mostly.

two points will help us fix up your cycle-

need a full tank picture can you post one

did you input any bottle bacteria into the mix

we have your number of days setup that part is factored, what kind of bacteria did you use if any? Thanks for posting

 

[vdubers]

The tests aren’t factored because that’s not a seneye and this is a testless cycle thread, it helps avoid false stall confusion as the old rules have us dependent on non digital ammonia kits to know when it’s done

we see those readings you posted in four year old reefs sometimes when using api, Red Sea ammonia, they cause confusion mostly.

two points will help us fix up your cycle-

need a full tank picture can you post one

did you input any bottle bacteria into the mix

we have your number of days setup that part is factored, what kind of bacteria did you use if any? Thanks for posting

That’s fair enough after reading through the thread I am happy to ignore the tests. While a seneye does seem great I’m not sure it would be of much use to me after the cycle is done and it’s not cheap .

I am at work at the moment (can’t help but research on reef2reef) however as soon as I get home I will get some pictures up.

11.8.23 I added some bacteria that you add direct to the rocks. I can’t remember the brand but will find it later.

Yesterday I added the double dose of API quick start bottle bac. It says on the bottle you are good to add fish in right after dosing however I have read reports of it taking longer.

Thanks for your help.

 

[brandon429]

Agreed, I too won’t own a seneye as we can predict ammonia in each case. I only like to have them as confirming measures when avail

 

[brandon429]

Final result / my opinion based on logged example patterns here and other threads

I see no reason to doubt the initial ammonia drop in the first two days (Doesn’t exclude test kit examples when then support my findings he he)

there isn’t a mechanism that allows for half ammonia control and then stops at one ppm. That’s where the kits lack final ability, thousands and thousands of cycles were reported one ppm on api long after they were stocked and running for a long time

the imported live rock isn’t nonfunctional, it’s quite strong at commanding ammonia with it’s included photosynthetic life forms and resident bacteria

the bottle bac is another contributor to the inherent early ammonia control

if you added fish they’d be fine but that also imports disease very likely right at the start, the concern should be disease preps and not the cycle

we’ve been waiting to day ten here in this thread as the official wait time, to equalize all variables stated and unstated and your tank is fine for the cycle either now or then. At that size gallonage that’s also a huge dilution, it would truly take an abnormally large fish loading to overcome 160 gallons of dilution, bottle bac that was fed, active live rock too

 

[vdubers]

Final result / my opinion based on logged example patterns here and other threads

I see no reason to doubt the initial ammonia drop in the first two days (Doesn’t exclude test kit examples when then support my findings he he)

there isn’t a mechanism that allows for half ammonia control and then stops at one ppm. That’s where the kits lack final ability, thousands and thousands of cycles were reported one ppm on api long after they were stocked and running for a long time

the imported live rock isn’t nonfunctional, it’s quite strong at commanding ammonia with it’s included photosynthetic life forms and resident bacteria

the bottle bac is another contributor to the inherent early ammonia control

if you added fish they’d be fine but that also imports disease very likely right at the start, the concern should be disease preps and not the cycle

we’ve been waiting to day ten here in this thread as the official wait time, to equalize all variables stated and unstated and your tank is fine for the cycle either now or then. At that size gallonage that’s also a huge dilution, it would truly take an abnormally large fish loading to overcome 160 gallons of dilution, bottle bac that was fed, active live rock too

Thanks I will get some pics up later just to confirm the surface area etc as the live rock really wasn’t much compared to the amount of dry. But the DT piece was very alive with lots of critters!

I actually am moving my old stock and live rock over from my other tank. I know a lot of people do the swap the same day I just figured getting a cycle going in the new one wouldn’t hurt.

My stock would be
1 regal tang
1 copperband butterfly
1 royal gramma
2 clowns
5 blue chromis

A few inverts and corals.

Was hoping to do the move on the 19th or 20th so that would be 13-14 days after water, dry rock and initial live rock was added.

I know a lot of the time a full water change is recommended but I just don’t have the space to store and make up 160g of new salt water . Happy to deal with any algae issues down the line (although hoping nitrates will just get used up by my refugium).

I guess my problem is that I added 2ppm ammonia and want to make sure it’s all gone before the transfer.

Oh forgot to add I do have diatoms growing on the new rock the last couple of days!

 

[vdubers]

Sorry for the delay here are some pictures of where it is at right now. Not the best the lighting isn’t great this time of day. I have tried to highlight the added amount of live rock/media.

 

[AyoItsRocco]

Welp here we go, finally got my tank running and added the turbostart and the pinch of fish food, will update in 10 days!

 

[AyoItsRocco]

Well here we are the results after 10 days.
Ph: 8.2
Ammonia: .50
Nitrate .10

Little concerned about the ammonia but everything else reads fine. Would say its a success?

 

[brandon429]

This is a testless cycling thread see post #1

We don't use test kits unless they're seneye readings, but we don't need any readings to cycle a tank due to the different way we handle cycles here so that nobody gets a false stall

That above is zero ammonia, it's yellow, not green were we using api as a reference. The reason we have to have a testless cycle thread is to know how to process the subjective levels people relay in cycling threads. Your cycle was done a while ago, several days ago

By using our method, 40+ pages of cycled tanks turn out perfectly. If we used api as the control like all other cycle threads the completion dates would be all over the place. Here in this thread we're able to name the exact date any reef presenting will be cycled by... an exact date vs an open ended wait using guess testing.

The most important thing for your reef is how you choose to prepare for fish disease, the fallow and quarantine approach. The cycle itself is no issue since we already know the completion date for any reef that posts, even before it's built. Cycle close dates are exact when using the new rule set.

This is the right way to handle order of stocking in new dry start reefs:

Has anyone done coral/inverts only and no fish at first?

Fish seem to be the main cause of disruption in a display tank, given the current circumstances in the hobby with pests (ich, velvet, parasites, etc.). I have been in this hobby for 18 years, and the amount of pests that are showing up lately is much more (could also be the fact that we have...

www.reef2reef.com

(Fish go in last, after complete tank stocking and a fallow run)