How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

[woodyarmadillo]

@Brandon thanks for all the contributions you make on this forum. I’m not sure if you even want this data since I don’t have a Seneye but I cycled with Wet sand, dry rock, Tim’s one and only with ammonia drops. After 3 days my ammonia climbed to 1.5 ppm (API and Salifert) and then by day 6 was down to showing what appeared to be .25 on both API and Salifert tests. They have maintained that level on the tests since then. The Salifert test kit may just be hard to read. The color is a coconut milky white so doesn’t look like 0 but I could be misreading. The API is clearly not the 0 yellow ammonia on the chart and much closer to the .25 reading. My nitrites have been showing about 4 since then and have not come down. My Nitrates were showing about 20 at day 10 (I’m aware this data is not reliable due to the nitrite reading).

On day 10, after a 40% WC, ammonia still showing about .25 on both test kits (possibly just user read error on Salifert but it’s hard to tell), Nitrites showing 4-5 on Salifert and API, Nitrates showing 10. I put 2 clowns in.

Im now on day 15 and both clowns and the 5 Softies and 2 LPS corals I added (maybe a bit fast on adding that much coral but I couldn’t help myself), are all thriving and doing great. Water parameters still maintaining according to test kits .25 ammonia, 4 PPM Nitrite, 10 PPM Nitrate.

 

[brandon429]

That is 100% pertinent and helpful to this thread thank you so much for posting, the mechanism we are keen to was the drop within ten days, this is a ten days control thread/nobody had to wait longer if they were using bottle bac

**where old cycling science would deviate is that it did not drop all the way to zero, that would have signified a stalled cycle yet you have the bioload carry in place to show it's ok, thats very new cycling science to audit in this way plus you have two kits confirming the drop and the within ten day time period, that's a very rare perspective.

we know that the drop continues like it shows on a cycling chart: down, and stays there after ten days in any common cycling arrangement and on those kits, nh4/total ammonia, .25 or a low level reading means safe zone, we no longer expect zeroes though some kits indeed may show that.

very helpful post thank you for chiming in for sure. *I would not think a system would be ready by day ten if they were doing a true unassisted cycle, no bottle bac no feed (nobody is sure how fast those set up shop, 4 months of wait is the only documented example I've seen/page 98 in Dr. Reefs huge bottle bac thread/user MSteven1) and I wouldnt think they'd be ready to reef at day ten if their bottle bac was stone cold dead and they goosed in 2ppm ammonia, but that's so rare we just don't encounter it here. I'm sure bottle bac death happens occasionally, any packaging system is subject to QA fouling, but the trend here is high dilution systems + two clownfish, those likely wouldn't even die in a totally unassisted setup if the feed wasn't too heavy and the tank wasn't too small, we have padding in place that often goes unstated.

in this thread we never want anyone dosing to 2 ppm if we can get to them first, for that very reason and also because that level clouds up most kits and makes a false stall readout. much less ammonia or a sub-in of common fish food works just fine.

 

[brandon429]

those levels you show, conflicting with the very able to reef system looking just fine every single day and handling feed+ waste, even though it's not supposed to be able to do that using the old ruleset, is exactly the conflict we want to study in pattern here.

I myself would never pay to own a seneye, not needed for cycling. they are however the best rule tester/tenet maker digital kit in reefing, we can use them to inspect claims about cycling and establish new rules etc. I like to harness what other people report in pattern on their $190 seneyes to link back to us people who don't use them but still copy the same degree of rocks in the display + number of days underwater at the inspection interval

those key repeating details are what link all cycling displays together for a very predictable timing ability even though we aren't all using digital kits. If seneye would donate me one for being their 8 year fanboy lol I'd use it like a madman to check all kinds of cycling details. and they should lol.

 

[woodyarmadillo]

That is 100% pertinent and helpful to this thread thank you so much for posting, the mechanism we are keen to was the drop within ten days, this is a ten days control thread/nobody had to wait longer if they were using bottle bac

**where old cycling science would deviate is that it did not drop all the way to zero, that would have signified a stalled cycle yet you have the bioload carry in place to show it's ok, thats very new cycling science to audit in this way plus you have two kits confirming the drop and the within ten day time period, that's a very rare perspective.

we know that the drop continues like it shows on a cycling chart: down, and stays there after ten days in any common cycling arrangement and on those kits, nh4/total ammonia, .25 or a low level reading means safe zone, we no longer expect zeroes though some kits indeed may show that.

very helpful post thank you for chiming in for sure. *I would not think a system would be ready by day ten if they were doing a true unassisted cycle, no bottle bac no feed (nobody is sure how fast those set up shop, 4 months of wait is the only documented example I've seen/page 98 in Dr. Reefs huge bottle bac thread/user MSteven1) and I wouldnt think they'd be ready to reef at day ten if their bottle bac was stone cold dead and they goosed in 2ppm ammonia, but that's so rare we just don't encounter it here. I'm sure bottle bac death happens occasionally, any packaging system is subject to QA fouling, but the trend here is high dilution systems + two clownfish, those likely wouldn't even die in a totally unassisted setup if the feed wasn't too heavy and the tank wasn't too small, we have padding in place that often goes unstated.

in this thread we never want anyone dosing to 2 ppm if we can get to them first, for that very reason and also because that level clouds up most kits and makes a false stall readout. much less ammonia or a sub-in of common fish food works just fine.

Good to hear. Yes, I didn’t stumble onto this information on here until after I had already started the cycle and added a lot of ammonia which I’m sure happens frequently. Since then I’ve read many many pages of these threads and your posts along with the data being provided by the others cycling made me feel confident that my cycle was complete. Thanks!

 

[collins.jason.k]

About to be starting a new tank, dry sand and dry rock, bottled bacteria. Just need to finish filling up and testing the plumbing.
130 gallon display and 37 gallon sump
Just shy of 100# rock and the same in sand.

Planning on dumping in some Fritz to cycle.

Have fish in established tank disease free to add when the time comes, no need to prep for disease control there.

@brandon429 ill let you know when, within the week, you call the day we add life without testing. More data for the masses. Let's show them!

 

[brandon429]

The way I would testless cycle that setup is add one ground up pinch of fish food in day one along with the water rocks and fritz. Nothing else

Wait ten days then begin. *you could add the fish and bottle bac day one like so many do and they'll be fine, some fish is an easy bioload to carry, but this short wait simply ensures if your bottle bac was dead the wait+food +naturally inoculated bacteria have time to form the nominal layer on the rock surfaces.

 

[mwhitfield79100]

Hi @Brandon,

I’m week 5.5 into my cycle and still showing the following.

Ammonia 0.05
Nitrite 0.25
Nitrate 5
Phosphate 0.1
PH 8.0

it’s my 2nd reef tank after a long break. Previously I used live rock and live sand and the tank was cycled in like 3 weeks. This time I’ve used life rock, live sand and DR Tim’s with a small dose of Dr Tim’s ammonia to kick start the cycle.


I’ve kept the lights of 90% of the time. Nothing seems to be changing as far of the tanks apperance.

Amonia has never spiked over 0.5.

over the last 10 days I’ve tested for Nitrite which has never been over 0.25.

phophate has always been between 0.25-0.10.

I have added my 2nd bag of carbon approx 2 weeks ago to see if that helped with the phosphate.
Nothing seems to be changing so this weekend I did a 10% water change. It lowered nitrite to 0.0 but the following day it was back to 0.25 amonia is always 0.5. I added another bottle of bacteria the brightwells one to see if it would help.

The tank is a Redsea E260.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Mike

 

[mwhitfield79100]

 

[brandon429]

the carbon isn't helping the cycle, it's not binding ammonia or phosphate but it's harmless to use.

you don't have to get an ammonia spike to get a cycle, you only need this contact time you've had along with some form of boost, and yours was great. I bet this tank carries any lift you add to it, its like the other cycles in this thread for sure.

 

[brandon429]

can you post a pic of the tank so we can see surface area in play

 

[collins.jason.k]

Hi @Brandon,

I’m week 5.5 into my cycle and still showing the following.

Ammonia 0.05
Nitrite 0.25
Nitrate 5
Phosphate 0.1
PH 8.0

it’s my 2nd reef tank after a long break. Previously I used live rock and live sand and the tank was cycled in like 3 weeks. This time I’ve used life rock, live sand and DR Tim’s with a small dose of Dr Tim’s ammonia to kick start the cycle.


I’ve kept the lights of 90% of the time. Nothing seems to be changing as far of the tanks apperance.

Amonia has never spiked over 0.5.

over the last 10 days I’ve tested for Nitrite which has never been over 0.25.

phophate has always been between 0.25-0.10.

I have added my 2nd bag of carbon approx 2 weeks ago to see if that helped with the phosphate.
Nothing seems to be changing so this weekend I did a 10% water change. It lowered nitrite to 0.0 but the following day it was back to 0.25 amonia is always 0.5. I added another bottle of bacteria the brightwells one to see if it would help.

The tank is a Redsea E260.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Mike

I'm thinking the advice you will get is that your cycle is not stalled, after 5.5 weeks you are safe to add a critter or two, that you should be focused on disease prep at this point. You kickstarted with bottled bacteria and you're now good to go.

 

[mwhitfield79100]

can you post a pic of the tank so we can see surface area in play

Sure, I will do one in the morning with the tank lights on. What exactly are you looking for with this, the flow of water or to see if there is any surface that needs skimming?

I have a skimmer but it’s turned off.

 

[mwhitfield79100]

I'm thinking the advice you will get is that your cycle is not stalled, after 5.5 weeks you are safe to add a critter or two, that you should be focused on disease prep at this point. You kickstarted with bottled bacteria and you're now good to go.

Thanks Jason.

When you say focus on disease prep, what are you suggesting with this?

So you think I should maybe add a few hermit crabs and snails at this stage, no fish?

 

[collins.jason.k]

Thanks Jason.

When you say focus on disease prep, what are you suggesting with this?

So you think I should maybe add a few hermit crabs and snails at this stage, no fish?

Check out the fish disease and treatment forum.
https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-and-diagnosis.771/
Has current QT protocols for new critters and how to keep their living space healthy for them to thrive.

 

[collins.jason.k]

Sure, I will do one in the morning with the tank lights on. What exactly are you looking for with this, the flow of water or to see if there is any surface that needs skimming?

I have a skimmer but it’s turned off.

Just want to see how much rock and surface the bacteria have to colonize.

 

[mwhitfield79100]

can you post a pic of the tank so we can see surface area in play

Hi Brandon,

hopefully this helps. Would you recommend I try anything else’s before adding Critters like Jason suggested?

keen to hear your feedback?
Mike

 

[collins.jason.k]

The way I would testless cycle that setup is add one ground up pinch of fish food in day one along with the water rocks and fritz. Nothing else

Wait ten days then begin. *you could add the fish and bottle bac day one like so many do and they'll be fine, some fish is an easy bioload to carry, but this short wait simply ensures if your bottle bac was dead the wait+food +naturally inoculated bacteria have time to form the nominal layer on the rock surfaces.

March 08, 2023 Water and Fritz added.
1 pinch of finely ground fish food added.

March 18, 2023 fish will be introduced from another tank in the house, same salinity and temp. Will not test. No lights, I refuse to even mount them so I won't have the urge to turn them on before a good amount of time passes, I know already that it's going to be challenging starting with dry rock and dry sand.

Will add to post with the results, which will I'm sure be pictures of fish that are happily moving to a home that's 100 gallons bigger.

 

[mwhitfield79100]

can you post a pic of the tank so we can see surface area in play

Can you get back to me on this please

 

[brandon429]

Agreed with Jason it's ready due to time underwater + plenty of surface area + good bottle bac and feed. It'll carry fish now can reef for sure

 

[reacclimating 2 the hobby]

Today is day 10 - added bottled bac(one day 1) and waited. Should I feed?