How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

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brandon429

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And they’re now trending opposite of our 29 pages: doubt, stalled cycled, dead bac.
all it takes is one doubt post and the desired status of stalled cycle we’d began to pry away is now cemented


The power of non digital readings cannot be understated that poster is roughly 99.9% likely to buy more bottled bac now, seneye right there says hundredths ppm but they’ll ignore it and always, always, always always take the scary doubt mode




when someone has two kits, one reading bad one reading good, why not just flip a coin and choose the bad one? For that reading to be correct we have to assume water bac did bad in water, they don’t, or we’d have one example here of floating dead fish.

if that risk existed we’d have at least one angry update here. We have none because bottle bac works. When someone takes water bacteria adapted for eons to live in various activity states in water and then they concentrate them, and sell them to us in water, that works. It doesn’t fail to work anymore than someone who bottles up atmospheric air and sells us a bottle marked: air


what originated as a fine comparison between digital and non digital had now trended into fear and re purchase very soon.

the state of accurate ammonia measurement is in flux in our hobby, since we always have to factor pH and temp to derive free ammonia, a seneye‘s temperature and pH values come into play and that’s two more params where a misread allows an endpoint nh3 reading that could be off pinpoint. But in the grand scheme:

how does bottle bac work here, with fails or 100% wins?

how many folks here posted bad initial non digital readings but were for sure ok at fish time?

how many of our seneye audits failed? You can plainly see even if seneye is one hundredth off base due to pH or temp mis calcs, seneye consistently reflects the status of life in the tank and Red Sea and api indicate total doom that never manifests.

Occasionally Red Sea and api accurately reflect the life forms running happy in a reef tank, seneye does reflect the visual status we can see in reefs 99.99% of the time even if it’s off slightly.

nobody in the hobby has a perfect nh3 measuring device because who here has a confirmed perfect pH device? There’s always some flux in the final read, but seneye takes reliability by a mile compared to a kit reading so dark there’s no way it’s indicating a safe water setting.
 
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awaiting pics there


that cycle seems stuck but was done about twelve days ago.
 
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brandon429

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Here’s a group of cycle umpires with a tight grip on being stalled, won’t unfactor the classic non digital test read, is buying more bottle bac, couldn’t make a convention setup on time, and has no clear start date given to him by peers, all peers doubt the cycle



posted so we can contrast with our two years, 100% perfect assigned start dates role and to show that old school cycling doubt persists outside this thread.



before anyone from that thread brings doubt here, you don’t get to use opposite means from us to convey it. Follow my rules, do the water change we do here, put some fish in the tank (start date is passed) and it will work, don’t post here if you plan on having an api battle. The specific mode of assessment here is timing based bioload additions into known clean water. do that, then post a pic of the tank after a week with fish in it, then we chat.
 
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discostew

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Tank has been cycled for a week or so. Don’t have fish yet did the big water change then. Small one yesterday. Twiddling my thumbs for my live stock. Have not added anything since flakes on day 1.
 
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brandon429

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Can’t wait to see animals updates I’m confident it’ll be fine

how about add some starter corals and a clean up crew in the interim
 

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To be honest have been focusing on fish and haven’t done homework on corals and disease prevention regarding corals. Might consider. I have no algae for CUC
 
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they eat fish pellets. in nature a cuc eats partial algae, huge degree of detritus and settled micro planktors don't think algae is their sole feed. you'll see where many cuc's dont ever touch it.

cuc go in before the algae outbreak, not during, its your best chance of prevention. the whole time they're eating food pellets and micro attachments onto detritus etc.

if you are going to make a fallowed system to help in fish disease, corals and cuc go in first, then fallow, then prepped fish in that order.


if you add fish into a fallowed tank without cuc and corals, it means you need to pass all these through fallowed alternate system so they dont break the chain of prep in the main display before adding. Having fish last on the fallowed reef pretty well already stocked to how it will be saves you from having to secure fallowed frags and cuc members.
 
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Thanks, may pick up a gsp or xenia and a few snails then. Since those corals won’t eat pellets. Just a small amount of pellets and maybe some (very little) brine for the gsp since it is photosynthetic? Apologies. I don’t mean to be sidetracking your thread.
 
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I agree we should discuss initial care methods as we want complete use of the ready cycle predicted even before application, this feed and early planned stock are the bioload testing that will prove or disprove the system ready. It's the collective load of feeding + animal waste + collective respiration waste from all food webs we intend to protect in assigning a start date


Yes that plan above is great. The food types your mentioning bring vitamins and proteins and nutrients into the system and begin the reduction in the food web, corals will pick up these factors along the way along with photosynthetic production


This new feeding also boosts up the invaders who capitalize first, so you'll get practice hand guiding the system clean too- exactly like we cause a front lawn to look great for the neighborhood by intentionally removing dandelions and weeds
 

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Thank you for continuing to support this thread! It has been a wealth of knowledge today. I started cycling my 25g on Jan 6 with Dr Tims (Bac and ammonia drops) - 4 days ago.

I believe I overdosed the ammonia from another thread, I put in 72drops - per the instructions of 4 drops per gallon. I only have 18g of water in the tank due to rock/sand displacement.

I have taken ammonia readings for the last 3 days using Red Sea (which only goes to 2ppm) and the readings are so dark I was convinced I did something wrong. So I went searching on R2R.

I had been tempted to add more Bac and wait it out, but after reading the articles and several of the threads. I’m wondering if I’m better to do a water change and build up ammonia slowly, testing along the way. I knows it’s only day 4 and I don’t mind waiting, but I’d like to be able to at least measure the trend in ammonia while it’s cycling.
 
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Hey perfect test pls update when it’s complete using a full tank shot and add two pinches of ground up fish food, ground into powder. This is a speed boost trick from Dr Reefs bottle bac thread

it’s ok the ammonia was overdosed, no harm. Even if you didn’t add fish food for carbon boosting the house itself contributes enough, from the same dander sources as what required cleaning off baseboards and fan tops. But the fish food is a real boost

simply wait a total of 14 days do a total water change and it’s ready. The tests don’t have to go to zero, that’s how we run cycles differently as that old school way is open ended wait, which also works


but not like this: January 18th

if you’ll add the fish food today, then it’s ready January 18th after a full water change, the proof of ready will be how the fish live daily vs anything the api test kit says, it literally doesn’t apply here your fish will live fine. So if you’d like to practice the accurate start date option post a full tank shot of your system once it’s been running a few days stocked. A crashed system won’t make a few days, it’ll die overnite. A ready system carries bioload after the assigned start date and closed the cycle on time, on a predetermined date based on cycling charts, bottle bac studies and timing patterns collected here

nice to meet you!
 

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Hey perfect test pls update when it’s complete using a full tank shot and add two pinches of ground up fish food, ground into powder. This is a speed boost trick from Dr Reefs bottle bac thread

it’s ok the ammonia was overdosed, no harm. Even if you didn’t add fish food for carbon boosting the house itself contributes enough, from the same dander sources as what required cleaning off baseboards and fan tops. But the fish food is a real boost

simply wait a total of 14 days do a total water change and it’s ready. The tests don’t have to go to zero, that’s how we run cycles differently as that old school way is open ended wait, which also works


but not like this: January 18th

if you’ll add the fish food today, then it’s ready January 18th after a full water change, the proof of ready will be how the fish live daily vs anything the api test kit says, it literally doesn’t apply here your fish will live fine. So if you’d like to practice the accurate start date option post a full tank shot of your system once it’s been running a few days stocked. A crashed system won’t make a few days, it’ll die overnite. A ready system carries bioload after the assigned start date and closed the cycle on time, on a predetermined date based on cycling charts, bottle bac studies and timing patterns collected here

nice to meet you!
Thank you! I will do as you have instructed :) I won’t be able to today, I don’t even have any fish food yet. Not my first tank, but I haven’t had one in many many years. I’ll start tomorrow, and assume a Jan 19th finish.
 

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Hey perfect test pls update when it’s complete using a full tank shot and add two pinches of ground up fish food, ground into powder. This is a speed boost trick from Dr Reefs bottle bac thread

it’s ok the ammonia was overdosed, no harm. Even if you didn’t add fish food for carbon boosting the house itself contributes enough, from the same dander sources as what required cleaning off baseboards and fan tops. But the fish food is a real boost

simply wait a total of 14 days do a total water change and it’s ready. The tests don’t have to go to zero, that’s how we run cycles differently as that old school way is open ended wait, which also works


but not like this: January 18th

if you’ll add the fish food today, then it’s ready January 18th after a full water change, the proof of ready will be how the fish live daily vs anything the api test kit says, it literally doesn’t apply here your fish will live fine. So if you’d like to practice the accurate start date option post a full tank shot of your system once it’s been running a few days stocked. A crashed system won’t make a few days, it’ll die overnite. A ready system carries bioload after the assigned start date and closed the cycle on time, on a predetermined date based on cycling charts, bottle bac studies and timing patterns collected here

nice to meet you!

Test this morning before changing water:
10FFBD4B-98FF-450A-AE50-E955BB7455DF.jpeg


I just changed 15 of 18gallons

Salinity - 35ppt
Ph - 8.2

NH3 - it was closer to 1.2 to the naked eye, camera captures 2.
84562217-2550-4739-803F-B5B0004E602B.jpeg


N03 - 2
8F335FED-71C7-47C8-BAD9-E89ACE4CCDD2.jpeg
 
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many people would be alarmed the ammonia kit didn't show bone zero just after a water change. we're not

the reading scaled down nicely from the high level to the small degree of old water still left.

something is a little off here though based on prior plan: we were adding fish food only, waiting, then doing the water change. so now that it's being customized simply add the fish food and do the wait, no other changes or dosings or testing is needed. you're using a kit that doesnt show zero on known clean water, therefore we don't pay much attention to what it says at anytime it won't be of any help for the final proof. no ammonia needs to be dosed again, no bottle bac, just the feed and the wait. the reason you don't need to add back in bottle bac is because the bacteria wasn't dead from the first round, re-adding is a form of doubt that the bacteria survived but here we never doubt water bacteria in water.

the kit picture won't be part of the final proof, we don't reference non digital test kits here that's what sets our thread apart/timing based only

so on the right start date you can just add fish, the big water change won't be needed. a couple pinches of ground up food powder isn't going to spike or poison anything. your ammonia was not in a range prior to kill the bacteria, there wasn't a need for a change this early but on the same token it won't hurt, nothing will stop a cycle in water given all normal variances in approach.
 

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many people would be alarmed the ammonia kit didn't show bone zero just after a water change. we're not

something is a little off here though based on prior plan: we were adding fish food only, waiting, then doing the water change. so now that it's being customized simply add the fish food and do the wait, no other changes or dosings or testing is needed. you're using a kit that doesnt show zero on known clean water, therefore we don't pay much attention to what it says at anytime it won't be of any help for the final proof. no ammonia needs to be dosed again, no bottle bac, just the feed and the wait.

the kit picture won't be part of the final proof, we don't reference non digital test kits here that's what sets our thread apart/timing based only

so on the right start date you can just add fish, the big water change won't be needed. a couple pinches of ground up food powder isn't going to spike or poison anything. your ammonia was not in a range prior to kill the bacteria, there wasn't a need for a change this early but on the same token it won't hurt, nothing will stop a cycle in water given all normal variances in approach.
Sorry I misunderstood. The fish food has been added. Now I wait :)

I know you like the seneye, but are there any “manual” tests you recommend. CleArly the RedSea is junk.
I plan on the Hanna Checker for UL phosphate, and Alk.
 
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not for ammonia and nitrite, those no longer need to be tested for at any time in the history of the tank. you can buy for non ammonia/nitrite readings whichever test kits you think align best in comparison threads. I only test for salinity and temp in my nano reef full of coral so by personal use truly don't have any to recommend. digital calibrated readers seem to have the least interpretation error.
 
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this reef was assigned start date 18th we can check that date easily next week with life.




we can keep this reference on file and send messages to verify outcomes and disease preps / outcomes of fish health in a few months. assigned start date met.



spot checking the reading is ok, but its important to know that reading reflects the huge early water change before seating time, and waiting through next week ensures seating time. you also must use nh4 vs nh3 reporting basis from page one here to factor that test reading correctly. its a passing reading so far, and when you add life it'll stay roughly around that level, that's the level ready tanks run at.


we don't expect zero on ammonia test kits in this thread for all 30 pages, waiting for zero ammonia means you're using opposite means from this thread, open-ended wait options that may have you wait until February if the kit doesn't go all the way to zero by then.
 
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Hi All,

I can't say enough how useful this thread has been.

I'm a new reefer so go easy on me.

Started 29th Dec '21. I won't bore you with all the details and test readings, but I added Dr Tim's to start, dosed 2ppm ammonia and nothing happened test wise for about 9 days. did a 25% water change and added ATM Colony. Ammonia started dropping.

Since then I've added Ammonia twice and the readings drop within 48 hrs. (they don't drop to 0 but drop to what my test kit reads when testing freshly made saltwater)

I have only waited for livestock because NO2/NO3 readings were very high, I now see this is in error.

My Disease plan: I have bought and set up a 54L (15 gal?) QT tank with a filter and a bag full of plasic bio balls from DT sump, added seachem stability and it is on day 3. I have an Ammonia Alert on both tanks.

Am I good to do a mega WC on my DT and start introducing CUC?

My first two fish will be juvenile clowns, they will be introduce to the QT tank (once it's cycled) for 4 weeks and migrated to DT assuming all OK.

My LFS QT all their fish - but I will QT anyway to be sure, I've got the tank now so might as well.

Thank you fellow reefers for your help.
 
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I 100% agree that’s safe to move forward. It’s multiple ammonia drops seen, well past day ten of wait and more than one brand of bottle bac + a disease preps plan. It’s updated cycling science 2022 thank you Very much for posting Mikey
B
 
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