How to Quarantine

[VJV]

Please do! Something like the Innovative Marine Fusion10 would probably be perfect at US99, unless you need to quarantine really large corals (in which case you could go for the 20, which at 200US would probably be a lot cheaper than your mega coral [emoji1])

 

[mandylv23]

Well apparently I just encountered my first copper sensitive fish, my parameters in my QT tanks are as follows:
Ammo 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20
Phos 0.25
Cupermine 0.5
Now all of my fish are fine except my Scopas tang, his appetite has been poor the past two days but still nibbling, we'll just came home from work and he's barley hanging on by a thread

 

[Humblefish]

Now all of my fish are fine except my Scopas tang, his appetite has been poor the past two days but still nibbling, we'll just came home from work and he's barley hanging on by a thread

I'd get him out. Put him in a bucket with copper free SW. Do TTM on him: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

 

[mandylv23]

I did exactly that when I first found him but he's still not looking good, I will be surprised if he makes it through the night. That's the only thing I could think of that affected him....it's ashamed, he's been in QT since November, he was almost finished treatment and was going back in DT on Jan 30th.....I hate to have come this far just to loose him

 

[Humblefish]

I did exactly that when I first found him but he's still not looking good, I will be surprised if he makes it through the night. That's the only thing I could think of that affected him....it's ashamed, he's been in QT since November, he was almost finished treatment and was going back in DT on Jan 30th.....I hate to have come this far just to loose him

All I can say is .....

 

[VJV]

I have had this question bugging me for a while so would be good if you you could finaly put it to rest so that i can sleep at night

Given that copper only works on the free swimming stages of ich, why is it that treatment is usually recommnded for 4-6 weeks, instead of the full 77 days that a tank needs to be fallow???

This is driving me mad [emoji12]

 

[melypr1985]

I have had this question bugging me for a while so would be good if you you could finaly put it to rest so that i can sleep at night

Given that copper only works on the free swimming stages of ich, why is it that treatment is usually recommnded for 4-6 weeks, instead of the full 77 days that a tank needs to be fallow???

This is driving me mad [emoji12]

I'm going to answer this and let humblefish correct me if I miss anything here.

Copper is a poison. Most fish can live longer in copper than parasites. In most cases the 30 days in copper is long enough to handle most strains of ich. There have been a few rare strains studdied that took much longer to break free of their encysted stage, so the 76 days fallow is to cover for those strains. Since your fish is still in QT during that time, you can observe for any further need to treat (it's not great to keep your fish in copper for longer than 30 days unless necessary). Odds are, you've killed off the ich with no problem, but it's good to play it safe and watch to make sure you haven't encountered one of those rare strains that are much longer lived.

 

[Humblefish]

I'm going to answer this and let humblefish correct me if I miss anything here.

Copper is a poison. Most fish can live longer in copper than parasites. In most cases the 30 days in copper is long enough to handle most strains of ich. There have been a few rare strains studdied that took much longer to break free of their encysted stage, so the 76 days fallow is to cover for those strains. Since your fish is still in QT during that time, you can observe for any further need to treat (it's not great to keep your fish in copper for longer than 30 days unless necessary). Odds are, you've killed off the ich with no problem, but it's good to play it safe and watch to make sure you haven't encountered one of those rare strains that are much longer lived.

^^Good answer. The vast majority of the time, 30 days of copper treatment eradicates most strains of ich. But you need to observe intently afterwards to be sure. There is a small chance you could encounter a strain of ich which takes >30 days to complete it's life cycle. This is yet another reason why tank transfer method is superior to copper, as you are literally outrunning the parasite's known life cycle. At some point the tomonts will all be left behind in one of the tank transfer aquariums no matter how long it takes for theronts to be released.

 

[VJV]

Thank you for both answers. However, this means that if we treat for 30 days leaving the tank fallow for 76 is rather pointless. Even if the fish looks good after the initial 30 day treatment plus observation, it may be carrying the desires even if no symptoms are apparent. You move that fish to your main tank and there is a chance that you are introducing ich in your system, even if the fish does not show any signs of it. In fact, the whole reason for prophylactic treatment is because fish may carry ich and show no signs of it.

So basically, the chances of introducing ich in a tank after treating for only 30 days are exactly the same as having ich in a tank that has gone through a 30 day fallow period, and perhaps one of the reasons behind the Mitch that "ich is always present".

In other words, has the same probability of surviving 30 days of copper as it has of surviving 30 days of fallow.

 

[melypr1985]

This is why TTM is superior for ich treatment. You outrun the life cycle of it and end up with just observation for other parasites/diseases afterwards. You dont have to worry about that small chance of ich surviving longer than 30 days in copper.

 

[VJV]

This is why TTM is superior for ich treatment. You outrun the life cycle of it and end up with just observation for other parasites/diseases afterwards. You dont have to worry about that small chance of ich surviving longer than 30 days in copper.

Thanks. I understand the chance may be remote, but it seems to be exactly as remote as the chance of having ich survive a 30 day fallow period. In which case, why bother going fallow for 76?

Unfortunately my work schedule rules out TTM as I travel frequently.

 

[VJV]

At some point the tomonts will all be left behind in one of the tank transfer aquariums no matter how long it takes for theronts to be released.

How can we be 100% sure that when we transfer the fish between tanks there are no Tomonts in the water/net used to catch and move the fish?

 

[melypr1985]

Thanks. I understand the chance may be remote, but it seems to be exactly as remote as the chance of having ich survive a 30 day fallow period. In which case, why bother going fallow for 76?

Well, you go fallow for the full 76 days because in a study (which humble has the link for) that was the longest amount of time it took for that strain of ich to be released from their cyst stage. So you go 76 days to play it safe just in case you have that long lived strain in the tank. Hopefully you dont, but if you do... the idea is that while the tank is fallow you have your fish in QT and can treat for it again if needed-maybe even in a different way like TTM or CP. I dont see any point in going fallow for 30 days and haven't seen any reference for doing so until this. I'm wondering where that number came from? Do you have a link for where you got that info?

 

[Humblefish]

There is another way to be more certain of eradication with copper, CP & hypo, but I caution this approach is still just theoretical. We know that these only target the theront or free swimming stage; there is some evidence that the protomonts may be successfully eradicated as well before they encyst into tomonts. So if you think about it, what you've got going on in QT is a "shield" which protects your fish from reinfection. The presence of the chemical (or hypo) zaps the free swimmers before they can reattach to your fish. And we know that the stage that stays attached to the fish, the trophont, can only remain on a fish for a maximum of 7 days (ich). All other external parasites have a much shorter duration.

So why not transfer a fish out of the treatment tank and into a non-medicated holding tank after, say, just 10 days? Or even straight from the treatment tank into the DT? I am currently experimenting with the feasibility of a 10 day treatment. Of course, treating for longer before transferring is always better.

The thing about this approach is therapeutic levels must be maintained for at least 10 consecutive days! And you do not lower the therapeutic level before transferring the fish! I cannot stress this enough! There is no wiggle room or margin for error or I forgot to test the copper level today.

 

[Jlobes]

How can we be 100% sure that when we transfer the fish between tanks there are no Tomonts in the water/net used to catch and move the fish?

I wonder this as well. when I do TTM, i dont use a net. I use square net pots to contain/capture the fish, drain the water and then I transfer the fish over to the new tank by hand, with a clean/dry hand. Thereby, transferring as little water as possible, as little as will cling to the fish. I even have duplicate food cups and pipettes to keep things clean.

heres a pic of my TTM equipment

 

[Humblefish]

I wonder this as well. when I do TTM, i dont use a net. I use square net pots to contain/capture the fish, drain the water and then I transfer the fish over to the new tank by hand, with a clean/dry hand. Thereby, transferring as little water as possible, as little as will cling to the fish.

heres a pic of my TTM equipment

View attachment 301808

Tomonts encyst (stick) upon glass, equipment, etc. in the tank transfer aquarium. They are typically not free floating. So the only stages you may possibly transfer with the fish is the trophont (on the fish) and theront (free swimming) stage (only if it happened to be in a drop of water on the fish.) The trophont being transferred is already account for, but each time you transfer the fish the odds of inadvertently transferring a theront become less and less. TTM takes 5 transfers and lasts 13 days for a reason - it has a built in safety net.

 

[Jlobes]

im with ya, and a believer...thats why i used TTM for the new borb.

 

[keithp]

Are there any unique symptoms of copper sensitivity? I think it is more likely the fish have a bacterial infection. Maracyn 2 seems to help with fish that don't eat even when it starts long after introduction. I have seen this in a number of fish that show no other symptoms. Quick treatment heals them. Late treatment doesn't. I am treating new fish immediately now since it has been such a problem for me. Maybe copper makes the fish more prone to infection?

 

[Humblefish]

Are there any unique symptoms of copper sensitivity? I think it is more likely the fish have a bacterial infection. Maracyn 2 seems to help with fish that don't eat even when it starts long after introduction. I have seen this in a number of fish that show no other symptoms. Quick treatment heals them. Late treatment doesn't. I am treating new fish immediately now since it has been such a problem for me. Maybe copper makes the fish more prone to infection?

Appetite suppression is the most common side effect. Not usually a deal breaker unless the fish stops eating entirely. Lethargy is another common side effect. I don't know whether the presence of copper makes a bacterial infection more likely. However, fish with preexisting parasitic infestations are more prone to secondary bacterial infections.

 

[VJV]

Appetite suppression is the most common side effect. Not usually a deal breaker unless the fish stops eating entirely. Lethargy is another common side effect. I don't know whether the presence of copper makes a bacterial infection more likely. However, fish with preexisting parasitic infestations are more prone to secondary bacterial infections.

I have my flame angel with the rest of my fish in a 55gallon QT tank for two months now, treating with cupramine at 0,40 for the past 4 weeks. I raised concentration really slow (took 2 weeks to get to this level) and yet as soon as the first drops hit the tank I could see he was in trouble. He goes into hiding a lot and when food hits the water he tries to eat but misses the food, almost as if he was blind...? Unfortunately I cannot take him out and I want to make sure I eradicate ich from the main display as this is the second time I moved all fish into QT and left my tank fallow, so hope he makes it through.