How to do pH Control with Kalkwasser Dosing

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have watched this video before. He states to tell the controller to dose two times the amount of evaporation in 24-hrs but only have it dose 12-hrs at night ?

I am my controller - I would imagine it would be harder to acclimate corals to NSW parameters after the corals get used to higher PH and ALK ?

Randy said : "A drop from pH 8.5 to pH 8.2 is about 50% drop in carbonate."

Probably happens !

“So let it be written, so let it be done”

I did not watch the video, but that means dosing 2x the evaporation, overall, every day. How exactly does he remove that much water each day and replace the salinity? Sounds tricky to me.

In a 100 gallon tank with 2% daily evaporation, that means dosing 4 gallons of water to the tank, reaching 102 gallons at the end of 24 h.

Removing 2 gallons of tank water takes the water back to its starting level, but the salinity is now down by 2%. Presumably that can only be added back by adding salt water (not solid salt mix), which increases the water volume again.

i don't see how this works out without adding solid salt mix directly (or using a lot of two/three part alk and calcium additives that boost salinity).

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

I did not watch the video, but that means dosing 2x the evaporation, overall, every day. How exactly does he remove that much water each day and replace the salinity? Sounds tricky to me.

In a 100 gallon tank with 2% daily evaporation, that means dosing 4 gallons of water to the tank, reaching 102 gallons at the end of 24 h.

Removing 2 gallons of tank water takes the water back to its starting level, but the salinity is now down by 2%. Presumably that can only be added back by adding salt water (not solid salt mix), which increases the water volume again.

i don't see how this works out without adding solid salt mix directly (or using a lot of two/three part alk and calcium additives that boost salinity).

I think he only really doses actual evaporation, not twice the volume. I don't have a controller, and his dosing pumps are only on for 12-hrs. So, he doses all evaporation at night in 12-hr period while the PH is lower.

He has a haz mat suit on playing around with sodium hydroxide too ? That takes care of the calcium rise.

I do not like precipitation and coating on my pumps and heaters. My PH climbs to 8.4 after my nightly dose of kalk, my alk is about 9-dkh. This works for me !


Probably happens !

“So let it be written, so let it be done”





I think

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think he only really doses actual evaporation, not twice the volume. I don't have a controller, and his dosing pumps are only on for 12-hrs. So, he doses all evaporation at night in 12-hr period while the PH is lower.

He has a haz mat suit on playing around with sodium hydroxide too ? That takes care of the calcium rise.

I do not like precipitation and coating on my pumps and heaters. My PH climbs to 8.4 after my nightly dose of kalk, my alk is about 9-dkh. This works for me !


Probably happens !

“So let it be written, so let it be done”





I think

OK, i misunderstood your description.

Just dosing kalkwasser at night to relace daily evaporation is as old as the hills.

 

[Garf]

sodium hydroxide

And potassium hydroxide; here's his warning; 10 minutes in;

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Following up on his discussion, dosing into in drain lines is not desirable for any high pH additives. Yes, local precipitation is an issue with any such methods and one needs to be careful. It is actually less likely for sodium or potassium hydroxide at the same potency as calcium hydroxide, he (and many others) just use it at a higher potency. It is the hydroxide concentration that causes the precipitation, NOT the nature of the counterion present.

Here's what my sump looked like where the kalkwasser was dosed right behind the skimmer outlet water (the white tubing). You do not want that inside of pipes.

What is that Precipitate in My Reef Aquarium? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Figure 4. When limewater drips onto surfaces, such as the sides of a sump, precipitation of calcium carbonate takes place. The off-white coloration probably comes from metals such as iron binding to the calcium carbonate surface in the place of calcium.

 

[aSaltyKlown]

he doses all evaporation at night in 12-hr period while the PH is lower.

My ATO runs 24/7 and will top off during the day as needed if the kalk solution does not meet the evap demand.

From the article.

You will need to know how much water your tank evaporates in a day. For this example, let's assume your tank evaporates 1 gallon per day, or 3785 mL. You will need to mix up enough Kalkwasser to support a full week times 2. In this case, that would be 14 gallons.

Dosing Kalkwasser​

Now, you will set a dosing pump (in this case the Neptune DOS), to add double the amount your tank needs to top off over a FULL 24 Hours. For this example, the top-off about was 3785 mL, so you will set the DOS to add 7570 mL from 00:00 to 23:59.

This is because the kalkwasser dosing method will not actually consume the full amount. It will only be on for about half of the time. The reason to do so this way, instead of setting the DOS for only half of the day, is that the tank will automatically determine the time it needs the pH boost and turn off outside of that. So don't worry about it seeming like a lot, but make sure that your tank won't overflow if there is a problem.

Make sure to also keep a standard ATO running in case the method uses less water than planned. This will ensure a stable salinity level as well as water levels.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

His discussion on pH stability vs alk stability reflects the ideas discussed here:

Alkalinity stability? pH stability? Are they even different?

It is currently the dogma of the reef aquarium hobby to say that alkalinity stability is very important for SPS corals, and that pH is not. Often, the very idea of someone trying to optimize pH is called “chasing numbers” as if that statement by itself shows it to be foolish. Since I have...

www.reef2reef.com

His discussion on sodium hydroxide being too dangerous for small systems is quite misleading, IMO. I don't agree that size matters, just how you use it matters.

Second New DIY Two Part Recipe with Higher pH Boost

In a previous thread, I posted a true two part DIY recipe: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-diy-two-part-recipes-with-higher-ph-boost.344500/ But some folks may want to just swap the new ingredient into my 2/3 part recipe (as used by BRS, for example). Here's the original recipe link...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

The OP's initial thread name = "How to do pH Control with Kalkwasser Dosing "

Has this been addressed ?

Sorry, I am old and slow. The last two posts address the OP's initial question nicely. I will bow out and leave this discussion to those with large systems and controllers.

Probably happens !

“So let it be written, so let it be done”

 

[Troylee]

I did not watch the video, but that means dosing 2x the evaporation, overall, every day. How exactly does he remove that much water each day and replace the salinity? Sounds tricky to me.

In a 100 gallon tank with 2% daily evaporation, that means dosing 4 gallons of water to the tank, reaching 102 gallons at the end of 24 h.

Removing 2 gallons of tank water takes the water back to its starting level, but the salinity is now down by 2%. Presumably that can only be added back by adding salt water (not solid salt mix), which increases the water volume again.

i don't see how this works out without adding solid salt mix directly (or using a lot of two/three part alk and calcium additives that boost salinity).

That’s where I was confused.. sister pointed out it’s a workaround the apex programming you dose double the amount of evap but for 12 hours presumably at night! I kept reading over that part.. I don’t believe sister does that his controller he built runs 24 hours a day and communicates with apex to keep it solid as needed..

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

How exactly does he remove that much water each day and replace the salinity? Sounds tricky to me.

This had already been cleared up, but to complicate things further. I made an AWC unit that recieves real-time kalk flow data and when the kalk controller dosed the total daily amount based on evaporation, the awc would dispense a concentrated salt mix that is calculated to dose just the right flow rate to mix with the kalk to create 35ppt. The the other pump would remove from the tank, the sum of both kalk and concentrated saltwater to maintain 35ppt in the tank.

I've only been doing this experiment for 9 months so far, but my salinity gets tracked and logged daily via refractometer, hanna conductivity and the apex in tank conductivity meter, and it hasn't shown signs of drifting one direction or the other.

I was reluctant to bring this up, because it may be seen as a clever way to get passed dosing kalk beyond evaporation but is a a bit tricky if youre not careful. If you recall the thread of me asking you you're advice I was a deflecting the questions of why I wanted to dose concentrated salt.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This had already been cleared up, but to complicate things further. I made an AWC unit that recieves real-time kalk flow data and when the kalk controller dosed the total daily amount based on evaporation, the awc would dispense a concentrated salt mix that is calculated to dose just the right flow rate to mix with the kalk to create 35ppt. The the other pump would remove from the tank, the sum of both kalk and concentrated saltwater to maintain 35ppt in the tank.

I've only been doing this experiment for 9 months so far, but my salinity gets tracked and logged daily via refractometer, hanna conductivity and the apex in tank conductivity meter, and it hasn't shown signs of drifting one direction or the other.

I was reluctant to bring this up, because it may be seen as a clever way to get passed dosing kalk beyond evaporation but is a a bit tricky if youre not careful. If you recall the thread of me asking you you're advice I was a deflecting the questions of why I wanted to dose concentrated salt.

Thanks.

If you make a hypersaline solution (like 70 ppt instead of 35 ppt), that can work if the salt solution itself is stable, but folks should know that making such solutions risks precipitation as the alk and calcium get quite high. It probably works best with lower alk mix.

 

[Garf]

I was reluctant to bring this up, because it may be seen as a clever way to get passed dosing kalk beyond evaporation but is a a bit tricky if youre not careful

Tropic Marin classic mixes up to 105 ppt without precipitation evident in my water, but I did it the un clever manual way;

Exceeding the limewater evaporation limit

Bit of a back story. In my old tank, many moons ago I used to do waterchanges by pumping in low salinity water, which used to overflow out of the acrylic sump, caring for the saltwater change and 75% of my evaporation, in one pump. The other 25% of the evaporation was taken into account by...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It seems like an expensive to way supplement, unless you want to do that water change anyway. For every 1 dKH of alk added, you also need to use 1.7% of the tank volume in new salt water, or 1.7 gallons in a 100 gallon tank.

The cost of that in new normal IO is about $0.60 per day.

The cost for a 1 dKH boost with AFR would be about the same.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

It seems like an expensive to way supplement, unless you want to do that water change anyway. For every 1 dKH of alk added, you also need to use 1.7% of the tank volume in new salt water, or 1.7 gallons in a 100 gallon tank.

The cost of that in new normal IO is about $0.60 per day.

The cost for a 1 dKH boost with AFR would be about the same.

You definitely need to want to do water changes. Otherwise, it does become redundant.

Early on, I programmed the awc to run anytime the kalk pump turned on and allow the ato to do its thing on its own. That got expensive because I was going through 2 bags (100g) of salt a week. I couldn't justify the cost. 2 boxes of salt a month was not sustainable for me.

Now that it just comes on based on evaporation, I change out roughly 3 gallons (concentrated ~60ppt) a day. Which is roughly 5g (if 35ppt) of water change a day.

Put it into perspective. Before this experiment, I was changing out 7g a day for a 15-20% waterchange a week.

From that perspective, I'm saving money on salt... hehe

 

[ReefStable]

Wow, quite the discussion! Thanks all for chiming in!

I've been running this method for about 1.5-2 years now and the coral growth has been fantastic!

There are always ups and downs based on the CO2 concentrations. I have an article coming out next week about how I use the kalkwasser in coordination with a calcium reactor to maintain the combination of alk and pH.

To address the question about evaporation. I (and Chris I believe) set it to be higher for a couple reasons. The 1st is that it can dose a full day's worth of evaporation at night and then simply evaporate during the day. You could turn it off during the day if you'd like. I don't though because there are times where more people are in the home during the day driving down pH. This allows the correction automatically. As long as this is not standard practice, the evaporation will take care of it within a day or so.

To address the alkalinity portion, I do cap the system at 11dKh. It will turn off at that point. More about this in next week's article.

I want to be VERY CLEAR, THIS IS NOT FOR EVERYONE! You need to have an understanding of what's going on and what to do if something goes wrong. That's why I build in alkalinity and pH maximums. I also monitor the sump level to prevent overdosing. Using a calcium reactor also provides a way to reduce pH while maintaining alkalinity (sneak peek to next week again).

Hopefully this helps clear the air

I know it's controversial. A couple things to remember are:
1) Kalkwasser is not new. This is more of a way to use it in measured ways.
2) There is no 1 perfect way to maintain a reef. 2 Parts, 1 Parts (AFR), Reactors, Kalkwasser, etc.
3) I am simply sharing this information to help allow everyone be more informed if they decide to do this themselves. It works for me, but I can't promise it will work for you.

Happy Reefing Yall!

 

[Garf]

Wow, quite the discussion! Thanks all for chiming in!

I've been running this method for about 1.5-2 years now and the coral growth has been fantastic!

There are always ups and downs based on the CO2 concentrations. I have an article coming out next week about how I use the kalkwasser in coordination with a calcium reactor to maintain the combination of alk and pH.

To address the question about evaporation. I (and Chris I believe) set it to be higher for a couple reasons. The 1st is that it can dose a full day's worth of evaporation at night and then simply evaporate during the day. You could turn it off during the day if you'd like. I don't though because there are times where more people are in the home during the day driving down pH. This allows the correction automatically. As long as this is not standard practice, the evaporation will take care of it within a day or so.

To address the alkalinity portion, I do cap the system at 11dKh. It will turn off at that point. More about this in next week's article.

I want to be VERY CLEAR, THIS IS NOT FOR EVERYONE! You need to have an understanding of what's going on and what to do if something goes wrong. That's why I build in alkalinity and pH maximums. I also monitor the sump level to prevent overdosing. Using a calcium reactor also provides a way to reduce pH while maintaining alkalinity (sneak peek to next week again).

Hopefully this helps clear the air

I know it's controversial. A couple things to remember are:
1) Kalkwasser is not new. This is more of a way to use it in measured ways.
2) There is no 1 perfect way to maintain a reef. 2 Parts, 1 Parts (AFR), Reactors, Kalkwasser, etc.
3) I am simply sharing this information to help allow everyone be more informed if they decide to do this themselves. It works for me, but I can't promise it will work for you.

Happy Reefing Yall!

On a recent Claude Schumacher vid recently, Claude asserts that kalk caused lots of tanks to crash due to binding of trace elements to calcium carbonate precipitation. I have no idea of the accuracy of that claim, obviously.

It's on this vid, somewhere, lol;

 

[ReefStable]

On a recent Claude Schumacher vid recently, Claude asserts that kalk caused lots of tanks to crash due to binding of trace elements to calcium carbonate precipitation. I have no idea of the accuracy of that claim, obviously.

It's on this vid, somewhere, lol;

I can't speak much to that to be honest.

I do ICP tests and correct as needed. Nothing is ever bottomed out nor could I tell you what the usage is from.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

On a recent Claude Schumacher vid recently, Claude asserts that kalk caused lots of tanks to crash due to binding of trace elements to calcium carbonate precipitation. I have no idea of the accuracy of that claim, obviously.

It's on this vid, somewhere, lol;

Some trace elements will bind to calcium carbonate surfaces (my picture above seems to prove the point visually), but I've never seen clear evidence of a tank that crashed from lack of one or more trace elements.

I'm not sure how one even proves that is what happened. Is there a level of some trace element below which a tank will crash? What element and what level?

It seems to me to be a very hard thing to prove, not only that a tank crashed due to a low trace element, but that the decline in that trace element was from binding to calcium carbonate surfaces provided by abiotic precipitation, as opposed to incorporation into organisms that may be calcifying faster at the higher pH kalkwasser provides.

 

[Metabolic]

Hi all, I haven’t read of any reaction to running this method with a large refugium on alternate light cycle.
I have a system volume of 2500lt and 32% is refugium, low stocked at the moment, mostly fish. I have the space to run this as a frag system if the algae is not needed (I based this system off the triton method, which I can assume the alt light cycle is to stabilise Ph) so if I can run this as ACI, is the macro needed or a hindrance?

 

[bobnicaragua]

I dose saturated kalk continuously to make up for most of my evaporation and two part is dosed every few hours.

I want to try dosing all the kalk at night and two part during the day.

Should I basically dose the kalk opposite my light schedule? (Same as my fuge). Lights are on for about 13 hours. The first and last hours are low par for extended viewing time.