how long does copper take to kill Ich

[RiaanP]

I firmly believe in doing the bucket transfer method to really cure whitespot. Been doing that for years and got a 100% survival rate.

However, I got asked a question around copper and I cannot find the answer.

As we know, copper is only effective during the free swimming stage. Basically it poison the whitespot theront more than it poisons your fish. How long during this short period, can the theront swim around in the copper poison, before the copper will kill it?

Is it like a headshot - boom - wasted action?
Or does it take 5 minute? half an hour? hour?

 

[Best Fish-Jake]

2 weeks is the standard treatment period.. the copper must be maintained at a therapeutic level for the entire 2 weeks.
I don't know if there have been any studies done on how long it takes copper to kill ich in the theront stage, but I'm betting within an hour... following

 

[RiaanP]

yes, that part I know.

Within the first couple of hours, since hatching and before finding a host. How long will the whitespot survive in a copper solution?

Their free swimming stage is 24 to 48 hours, although the longer they take the lest effective they are to penetrate the host. (maybe too tired to dig - to put it in simple terms)
and

A proront is a theront that has contacted a host as attachment begins. Proronts invade the epithelium in as little as five minutes and the wounds can heal over them rapidly (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). Proronts then quickly become trophonts and start to feed on the host fish.

So how long does copper take to kill the free swimming theront before it can find a host?

 

[RiaanP]

2 weeks is the standard treatment period.. the copper must be maintained at a therapeutic level for the entire 2 weeks

This period would be to ensure that those whitespot pests that are on the host already (3 to 7 days), grow up and eventually fall off are also targeted. Although they encyst within 2 hours but can take longer, up to 18 hours. Hopefully the copper do have time to have an impact on these before they encyst. Else we need to wait that they hatch and hopefully zap the second wave as they hatch. In my experience, the next breakout takes 11 to 12 days depending on factors. 14 days is not enough in my opinion, as the cyst can take 3 to 28 days to hatch, again depending on factors like temperature.

Leads to another question, do copper impact whitespot as they fall off the host before they encyst? Have time to kill it?

 

[Brew12]

How long during this short period, can the theront swim around in the copper poison, before the copper will kill it?

The theront can swim around in the copper for hours, and may even attach to the fish in copper treated water. However, as long as proper copper levels are maintained, it will be too genetically damaged to survive for more than a few hours.

As we know, copper is only effective during the free swimming stage.

I am guilty of saying this as much as anyone, but it isn't completely correct. Theronts are very susceptible to copper and will die anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours. If a tomont (cyst stage) is exposed to the copper treated water for 2 to 3 weeks the copper will prevent it from producing viable theronts.

This is the basis for the two main copper treatment options. You can treat the fish for as few as 9 days in copper if you transfer them immediately to a clean quarantine tank. It is typically recommended to treat for a little longer to allow some margin which is why I prefer 14 days.
The other option is to treat in copper for 30 days. At this point you can remove the copper from the system and keep the fish in the same tank. Not only will you have killed the theronts but any remaining unhatched tomonts will also have been sterilized.

 

[Humblefish]

The theront can swim around in the copper for hours, and may even attach to the fish in copper treated water. However, as long as proper copper levels are maintained, it will be too genetically damaged to survive for more than a few hours.

+1 I read one study (will have to find it) which claimed a theront is damaged almost immediately after emerging from it's tomont (in copper water). Like you said, the severity of damage is highly dependent upon whether or not the copper is being maintained at a proper therapeutic level. Subtherapeutic copper may allow some of the theronts to survive and complete their lifecycle; and then the next wave could be more resistant to copper in the water. ;Nailbiting

 

[Brew12]

+1 I read one study (will have to find it) which claimed a theront is damaged almost immediately after emerging from it's tomont (in copper water).

I've been searching for that study with no luck myself.

I just remember it talked about the theront being damaged to the point of not being viable in a matter of minutes but that it could potentially survive for longer. Assuming therapeutic levels of copper, of course.

 

[RiaanP]

Thank you @Brew12 and @Humblefish for your replies.

Now that you remind me, long ago I did read an article that touched on copper and cysts. And it stated that it does impact the cyst but not 100% all of them. Something in the range on 80 or 70% if I can now recall correctly. That will help in reducing the second wave numbers a lot, giving the fish in our little glass boxes a better change. I need to find that document.

Another problem I got is that in my experience with whitespot, is that the second wave hatch around 11 days after first round. Mass fish die-off before 14 days. If the copper takes 3 weeks to kill cysts we are possibly still looking at rather large numbers emerging. 11 days is what I found is the cycle here in South Africa. On a number of occasions where a guy had an outbreak and then he said its all sorted, no more spots and his fish are healthy while the fish are still in his display, asked them 14 days later how is it going just to get a reply that he lost most if not all his fish.

 

[Brew12]

Something in the range on 80 or 70% if I can now recall correctly.

I remember reading something along those lines, also. If I recall correctly, this was based on a 10 day treatment. I really wish I could find that study. Although I have never seen a study that shows it I do believe that by day 30 in therapeutic levels of copper that 99%+ of cysts will be genetically sterilized.

Another problem I got is that in my experience with whitespot, is that the second wave hatch around 11 days after first round. Mass fish die-off before 14 days. If the copper takes 3 weeks to kill cysts we are possibly still looking at rather large numbers emerging. 11 days is what I found is the cycle here in South Africa. On a number of occasions where a guy had an outbreak and then he said its all sorted, no more spots and his fish are healthy while the fish are still in his display, asked them 14 days later how is it going just to get a reply that he lost most if not all his fish.

This is why I would never trust any treatment recommendation that lasts 14 days and doesn't involve a transfer into a clean quarantine. There are many products that recommend 2 treatments a week apart or treatment for 10 days. This doesn't make sense if you understand the Cryptocaryon lifecycle.

 

[Humblefish]

I've been searching for that study with no luck myself.

I know I have it in my trove of studies on the desktop (which is currently in storage).

 

[EmptyWallet]

Hi guys, sorry to dig up an old post. If ich falls off in 3-7 days and therapetic copper levels prevent 'free swimmers' from re-attaching, is it safe to move a fish to your display tank after say 10 days to be safe?

Everything I've read infers yes but refers too TTM as opposed to straight into the display?

I get that 30 days is needed for the QT itself due to cysts.

Main reason I'm asking is that the Australian distributors announced the last shipment of Yellow Tangs today so I'm keen to secure one (aqua cultured tangs are banned for import here, can you believe that nonsense!) my LFS has put $250 on it, more than a purple tang! and double what it cost yesterday

Thanks

@HotRocks @Big G @4FordFamily

 

[EmptyWallet]

sorry and my MI has only been in therapeutic copper for about 20 days so far and I want to 'evict him' to the DT. I couldn' reset the clock on him for the yellow tang, I just couldn't!

 

[Brew12]

Hi guys, sorry to dig up an old post. If ich falls off in 3-7 days and therapetic copper levels prevent 'free swimmers' from re-attaching, is it safe to move a fish to your display tank after say 10 days to be safe?

Yes, you can. After 8 days in therapeutic copper you can transfer a fish out. The preference would be to put them into a clean DT to continue to observe for other issues. If you carried out the treatment properly, Ich and Velvet will no longer be a concern.

 

[EmptyWallet]

Thanks Brew12!

 

[Jo Beth Latimer]

What level of copper should you maintain in your quarantine tank? I have 2 tangs with white spots. I just quarantined and I added some copper per directions, however I am not sure the best level.

 

[Brew12]

What level of copper should you maintain in your quarantine tank? I have 2 tangs with white spots. I just quarantined and I added some copper per directions, however I am not sure the best level.

What type of copper did you add?

 

[nick9one1]

Yes, you can. After 8 days in therapeutic copper you can transfer a fish out. The preference would be to put them into a clean DT to continue to observe for other issues. If you carried out the treatment properly, Ich and Velvet will no longer be a concern.

This is a little misleading.
Yes you can transfer fish from the copper hospital tank after 8 days (or per the manufacturers instructions). But you cannot put them back in the display tank for 6-8 weeks - whitespot will survive in the untreated tank for this long. You need to make sure there are no fish in there and essentially starve it out.

 

[Brew12]

This is a little misleading.
Yes you can transfer fish from the copper hospital tank after 8 days (or per the manufacturers instructions). But you cannot put them back in the display tank for 6-8 weeks - whitespot will survive in the untreated tank for this long. You need to make sure there are no fish in there and essentially starve it out.

I believe the original question was treating a new fish prior to adding them to the DT, not removing the fish from the DT to treat.

Based on the information I have seen, it may be that a fallow period of almost any length can fail due to hypoxic conditions in the rock and substrate.

 

[EmptyWallet]

Correct, the DT I was transferring into was 'clean' and Gill was the first fish in. I've quaranteened a bunch of fish now and following the QT rules and maintaining therapeutic levels of copper (using Hanna checker for accuracy) is a ticket to an Ich free life. I should also point out that anything wet that goes into my tank has done 45 days fallow in QT as well. In my opinion your wasting your time QT'ing fish properly, only to dump a coral frag or rock or chaeto etc. into the DT with potential cysts attached. A massive pain to do it this way, but a great peace of mind knowing ICH will never be an issue

 

[Brew12]

Correct, the DT I was transferring into was 'clean' and Gill was the first fish in. I've quaranteened a bunch of fish now and following the QT rules and maintaining therapeutic levels of copper (using Hanna checker for accuracy) is a ticket to an Ich free life. I should also point out that anything wet that goes into my tank has done 45 days fallow in QT as well. In my opinion your wasting your time QT'ing fish properly, only to dump a coral frag or rock or chaeto etc. into the DT with potential cysts attached. A massive pain to do it this way, but a great peace of mind knowing ICH will never be an issue

Sounds like everything is going well then?