jabberkaycee
Aquatic Addict
I just ran about 15 minutes of hot water through my RO/DI unit. Will it hurt the membrane?
Hot Water - Oops
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Mike J.
2500 Club Member
Does it have a flush kit? 15 minutes ain't a real long time. Maybe take it out and flush it. Definitely is not good, as you probably already know. Not because of the hot water but because of the excess minerals in you hot water heater.
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jabberkaycee
Aquatic Addict
It has a membrane flush kit, I've just never flushed it before. It's only about 2 months old (Bulk Reef Supply 4 stage) and I only make 12 gallons a week. I'll figure out how to flush it tonight. So it has more to do with the minerals than the temp - right? Our water is über hot.
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Actually hot water has less minerals than cold water. Only thing i would be worried about is the hot water breaking down the filter media.
Karen, do you have a TDS meter? Then you could tell if the membrane broke through! I would say that it's probably not that big of a deal to run hot water across it for a little while but I'm definitely no expert on it.
It's a good idea to have a TDS meter whenever you've got an RO system. I've seen some really great people completely crash really nice tanks because their membranes broke through and they didn't have a TDS meter to let them know.
You can get an inline one or a handheld one. I think they're about $30. Well worth it. If I had a handheld one I'd totally let you borrow it but mine is inline.
It's a good idea to have a TDS meter whenever you've got an RO system. I've seen some really great people completely crash really nice tanks because their membranes broke through and they didn't have a TDS meter to let them know.
You can get an inline one or a handheld one. I think they're about $30. Well worth it. If I had a handheld one I'd totally let you borrow it but mine is inline.
Mike J.
2500 Club Member
How do you figure that hot water has less minerals that cold water? that's absurd. Have you seen the inside of a hot water heater? There's inches a crud and metal flakes on the bottom.
Well being a Master plumber i will explain. When the water sits in the tank for a period of time most all the sediment settles to the bottom of tank so the water above this level is cleaner. Lots of people hook there icemakers to the hot water line to get cleaner ice. Maybe you need to do your research before spouting off.
PaulKreider
Valuable Member
Mike J.
2500 Club Member
Sulfate which is combination of sulfur and oxygen (SO4) exists as a dissolved salt in the water. As such it is colorless and odorless. It is not to be confused with the gas in the water that causes a rotten egg odor. This is a combination of Hydrogen and Sulfur (H2S). Removal technology is totally different for the two forms of sulfer. Sulfate will react with aluminum and magnesium (what anode rods inside water heaters are mode of) and produce that nasty smell in the hot water only. Sulfates: The US Primary Drinking Water Regulations list safe levels of sultates at 500 ppm (mg/l) in drinking water and Secondary Drinking Water Regulations for sulfates at 250 ppm (mg/l). A water heater can provide and ideal environment for the conversion of sulfate to hydrogen sulfide gas. The water heater can produce hydrogen sulfide gas in two ways - creating a warm environment where sulfur bacteria can live, and sustain a reaction between sulfate in the water and the water heater anode. A water heater usually contains a metal rod called an "anode', which is installed to reduce corrosion of the water heater tank. The anode is usually made of magnesium metal, which can supply electrons that aid in the conversion of sulfate to hydrogen sulfide gas. The anode is 1/2 to 3/4 inches in diameter and 30 to 40 inches long. This is just one reason in my case against not using hot water in an aquarium. I'll supply more later when I have time. Check your water company water analysis and see what your levels of sulfates are.
I would never recommend anyone to use hot water in there tanks. RO water only. I have seen filters that were installed by mistake on hot water and the media inside some of these completly broke down. As stated before test your tds if you think you may have damaged filter.
Mike J.
2500 Club Member
same thing with drinking water or ice makers. Bet their ice has a smell to it - seen it before. Check out my profile. I'm a general contractor and I do know that poop runs downhill. More reasons to not drink water ran through a hot water heater coming soon; as soon as I finish plumbing this house.
Ok so hot water can actually break down her membrane? Or are you talking about her carbon or her DI resin? Surely it shouldn't affect her carbon.
I'm curious if it would weaken her membrane. That's what I am the most curious about.
I'm curious if it would weaken her membrane. That's what I am the most curious about.
Mike J.
2500 Club Member
http://www.filterwater.com/docs/filmtec/tw30-1812-75.pdf I'm sorry, been real busy. I don't know the answer, so here is all I can come up with. It states maximum operating temperature at 113 degrees.
ChemE18
New Member
In a sense, all points made here are somewhat correct.
High temerature effect on membrane:
The most common RO membrane, DOW Filmtec membrane, is made of a thin polyamide film. Polyamide is another name for nylon. It simply means that the membrane is a long, repeating chain of amide molecules. An amide is nearly the same group as amines (found in amino acids, proteins) and thus are sensitive to heat. As an example, consider cooking meats in your oven. As you heat up your meat, the proteins in the meat begin to break down (meat and bacterial proteins alike). Since all proteins are made of amino acids, you are doing nothing more than denaturing proteins and breaking some of the bonds to the amine groups. On average, the lowest recommended safe temperature for chicken is ~160 F. This is recommended because the proteins do not break down for sufficient microbial die-off until around 160 F.
That being said, we may apply this same knowledge to the
High Temperature effect on ion concentration:
Settling of sediment in water heater:
High temerature effect on membrane:
The most common RO membrane, DOW Filmtec membrane, is made of a thin polyamide film. Polyamide is another name for nylon. It simply means that the membrane is a long, repeating chain of amide molecules. An amide is nearly the same group as amines (found in amino acids, proteins) and thus are sensitive to heat. As an example, consider cooking meats in your oven. As you heat up your meat, the proteins in the meat begin to break down (meat and bacterial proteins alike). Since all proteins are made of amino acids, you are doing nothing more than denaturing proteins and breaking some of the bonds to the amine groups. On average, the lowest recommended safe temperature for chicken is ~160 F. This is recommended because the proteins do not break down for sufficient microbial die-off until around 160 F.
That being said, we may apply this same knowledge to the
High Temperature effect on ion concentration:
Settling of sediment in water heater:
ChemE18
New Member
Oops, I must have posted too early. Haha.
In a sense, all points made here are somewhat correct.
High temerature effect on membrane:
The most common RO membrane, DOW Filmtec membrane, is made of a thin polyamide film. Polyamide is another name for nylon. It simply means that the membrane is a long, repeating chain of amide molecules. An amide is nearly the same group as amines (found in amino acids, proteins) and thus are sensitive to heat. As an example, consider cooking meats in your oven. As you heat up your meat, the proteins in the meat begin to break down (meat and bacterial proteins alike). Since all proteins are made of amino acids, you are doing nothing more than denaturing proteins and breaking some of the bonds to the amine groups. On average, the lowest recommended safe temperature for chicken is ~160 F. This is recommended because the proteins do not break down for sufficient microbial die-off until around 160 F.
That being said, we may apply this same knowledge to the RO membrane. The polyamide film will begin to break down and weaken at high temperatures (>150 F). Since most weater heaters are under 140 F, the threshold for burns on human skin, the membrane will most likely not tear immediately. However, using hot water repeatedly would ensure membrane failure. The length of time to failure certainly depends on the temperature of your water heater. DOW lists a maximum operating temperature of 113 F (as shown in the link above).
High Temperature effect on ion concentration:
In general, as the temperature of the water increases, the concentration of dissolved solids increases. The increase in temperature provides the necessary energy to dissolve the metals. Although, this increase in concentration is only a very slight one for the range of temperature increase in this situation. For the most part, the temperature of the water would need to be ~200 F for a significant change in ion concentration. Thus, ion concentration would not be expected to be significantly greater at 140 F, in this case. Also, note that as solids dissolve, they do not settle. Once dissolved, the metals are no longer suspended solids, but instead are ions in a solution. For dissolved metals and ions in solution, a settling tank will have no effect on their concentration.
Settling of sediment in water heater:
Solids that do not dissolve will settle in a tank with low turbulence. Most likely, there are less suspended solids in a the hot water line after running through the water heater than the cold water line. The water heater definitely serves as a settling tank, as for many hours of the day, the tank sits idly. This allows the heavy, solid sediment to settle. Note that sediment is not the same as ions. Ions are dissolved and are uniform in solution, since their molecular mass is very near to that of water molecules. Sediment has a molecular mass much greater than that of water, making it fall to the bottom of the idle holding tank. Thus, a settling tank will provide a more pure water stream, but only with respect to total purity. The sediment is not measured by a TDS (total DISSOLVED solid) measuring device.
In a sense, all points made here are somewhat correct.
High temerature effect on membrane:
The most common RO membrane, DOW Filmtec membrane, is made of a thin polyamide film. Polyamide is another name for nylon. It simply means that the membrane is a long, repeating chain of amide molecules. An amide is nearly the same group as amines (found in amino acids, proteins) and thus are sensitive to heat. As an example, consider cooking meats in your oven. As you heat up your meat, the proteins in the meat begin to break down (meat and bacterial proteins alike). Since all proteins are made of amino acids, you are doing nothing more than denaturing proteins and breaking some of the bonds to the amine groups. On average, the lowest recommended safe temperature for chicken is ~160 F. This is recommended because the proteins do not break down for sufficient microbial die-off until around 160 F.
That being said, we may apply this same knowledge to the RO membrane. The polyamide film will begin to break down and weaken at high temperatures (>150 F). Since most weater heaters are under 140 F, the threshold for burns on human skin, the membrane will most likely not tear immediately. However, using hot water repeatedly would ensure membrane failure. The length of time to failure certainly depends on the temperature of your water heater. DOW lists a maximum operating temperature of 113 F (as shown in the link above).
High Temperature effect on ion concentration:
In general, as the temperature of the water increases, the concentration of dissolved solids increases. The increase in temperature provides the necessary energy to dissolve the metals. Although, this increase in concentration is only a very slight one for the range of temperature increase in this situation. For the most part, the temperature of the water would need to be ~200 F for a significant change in ion concentration. Thus, ion concentration would not be expected to be significantly greater at 140 F, in this case. Also, note that as solids dissolve, they do not settle. Once dissolved, the metals are no longer suspended solids, but instead are ions in a solution. For dissolved metals and ions in solution, a settling tank will have no effect on their concentration.
Settling of sediment in water heater:
Solids that do not dissolve will settle in a tank with low turbulence. Most likely, there are less suspended solids in a the hot water line after running through the water heater than the cold water line. The water heater definitely serves as a settling tank, as for many hours of the day, the tank sits idly. This allows the heavy, solid sediment to settle. Note that sediment is not the same as ions. Ions are dissolved and are uniform in solution, since their molecular mass is very near to that of water molecules. Sediment has a molecular mass much greater than that of water, making it fall to the bottom of the idle holding tank. Thus, a settling tank will provide a more pure water stream, but only with respect to total purity. The sediment is not measured by a TDS (total DISSOLVED solid) measuring device.
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jabberkaycee
Aquatic Addict
Just got back in town. Yes, I have a TDS meter and outgoing water is showing zero. I may replace my carbon filter as a precaution but hopefully no damage was done. Thanks so much!
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