Help with setting up Copper Power QT plan

[taylormaximus]

Hi! So I'm researching trying to do a copper QT for new fish moving forward (using copper power). I had a couple questions to get clarifications on, and then after that I'll probably make a post sharing my QT plan, just to run it by some pros on here and check for flaws.

1. Could you go 14 days without water changes by using prime every 48 hours and ammonia badge along with a cycled bag of seachem matrix for bio filtration? (I read that Prime can actually be used with Copper Power safely, but I'd like to confirm that).

2. Do you need to use a Hanna copper checker if you measure the exact quantity of water in the system and calculate the ppm? Assuming I keep up with water top off of course, I should be able to always calculate the ppm without testing.

3. Can you use reef rally pro at the same time as Copper power or would that be too stressful? Also would using Rally pro treat for anything else additional or would it just be a redundancy?

4. Will all equipment used in copper be permanently contaminated with copper after this, or is there a way to sterilize it for other uses afterwards?

My rough plan so far is to start with an H2O2 bath, followed by 14 days symptom free in copper, and doses of fritz paracleanse (general cure is banned in Canada) and reef rally pro if necessary. Not sure if those are all compatible with copper power as well, but that's something else to check. Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi! So I'm researching trying to do a copper QT for new fish moving forward (using copper power). I had a couple questions to get clarifications on, and then after that I'll probably make a post sharing my QT plan, just to run it by some pros on here and check for flaws.

1. Could you go 14 days without water changes by using prime every 48 hours and ammonia badge along with a cycled bag of seachem matrix for bio filtration? (I read that Prime can actually be used with Copper Power safely, but I'd like to confirm that).

2. Do you need to use a Hanna copper checker if you measure the exact quantity of water in the system and calculate the ppm? Assuming I keep up with water top off of course, I should be able to always calculate the ppm without testing.

3. Can you use reef rally pro at the same time as Copper power or would that be too stressful? Also would using Rally pro treat for anything else additional or would it just be a redundancy?

4. Will all equipment used in copper be permanently contaminated with copper after this, or is there a way to sterilize it for other uses afterwards?

My rough plan so far is to start with an H2O2 bath, followed by 14 days symptom free in copper, and doses of fritz paracleanse (general cure is banned in Canada) and reef rally pro if necessary. Not sure if those are all compatible with copper power as well, but that's something else to check. Thanks in advance for the help!

Our current quarantine protocol is kept on the front page of this thread:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2022 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Can you deviate from this plan? Yes, but it was developed with the best information that we have.

To answer your specific questions

1. Could you go 14 days without water changes by using prime every 48 hours and ammonia badge along with a cycled bag of seachem matrix for bio filtration? (I read that Prime can actually be used with Copper Power safely, but I'd like to confirm that). Prime cannot be used with Cupramine, another amine-based copper product. I avoid all reducing agents like this when treating with copper products. Better to rely on solid biological filtration and/or water changes.

2. Do you need to use a Hanna copper checker if you measure the exact quantity of water in the system and calculate the ppm? Assuming I keep up with water top off of course, I should be able to always calculate the ppm without testing. In theory yes, but in practice, the copper dose tends to drop and without a test kit, you have no way to determine that. If you are doing routine water changes and are dosing the replacement water with the exact amount of copper needed, it would probably work. Many people find that copper power needs to be run at 2.5 ppm, and the bottle dose is set for 2.0 ppm I believe.

3. Can you use reef rally pro at the same time as Copper power or would that be too stressful? Also would using Rally pro treat for anything else additional or would it just be a redundancy? I wouldn't do that, they are redundant to some degree, and it could stress the fish more.

4. Will all equipment used in copper be permanently contaminated with copper after this, or is there a way to sterilize it for other uses afterwards? Plastic, glass and other inert materials are fine after being dosed with copper, just need a good FW rinse, some people find that a rinse with a vinegar solution and then FW helps dissolve any copper that might be adsorbed onto surfaces. The big issue is any material that is composed of carbonates. those cannot usually be re-used in an invertebrate system. There is no issue at all if the materials will just be used in quarantine tanks in the future.....

Jay

 

[Jason_MrFrags]

Hi! So I'm researching trying to do a copper QT for new fish moving forward (using copper power). I had a couple questions to get clarifications on, and then after that I'll probably make a post sharing my QT plan, just to run it by some pros on here and check for flaws.

1. Could you go 14 days without water changes by using prime every 48 hours and ammonia badge along with a cycled bag of seachem matrix for bio filtration? (I read that Prime can actually be used with Copper Power safely, but I'd like to confirm that).

Use an ammonia badge. Depending on how much you are feeding/amount of fish in the tank you could go the full 2 weeks without having and issue.

2. Do you need to use a Hanna copper checker if you measure the exact quantity of water in the system and calculate the ppm? Assuming I keep up with water top off of course, I should be able to always calculate the ppm without testing.

But its best to use some sort of test kit to know you are within therapeutic range.

3. Can you use reef rally pro at the same time as Copper power or would that be too stressful? Also would using Rally pro treat for anything else additional or would it just be a redundancy?

Rally is such a wide spectrum treatment because it contains 2 antiseptics (acriflavine, aminoacridine) and a small amount of formalin (antiparasitic). So, it knocks off "surface parasites" + eliminates harmful bacteria on the fish. I also feel Rally is much more effective when used as a bath treatment rather than dosing in-tank. Looks like you mention doing peroxide bath instead though, you could also consider Methylene Blue before peroxide. They are both pretty gentle baths.

4. Will all equipment used in copper be permanently contaminated with copper after this, or is there a way to sterilize it for other uses afterwards?

My rough plan so far is to start with an H2O2 bath, followed by 14 days symptom free in copper, and doses of fritz paracleanse (general cure is banned in Canada) and reef rally pro if necessary. Not sure if those are all compatible with copper power as well, but that's something else to check. Thanks in advance for the help!

After 2 weeks in copper you would want to remove them from that tank and then then treat with the metro/prazi while observing for another 2 weeks.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi! So I'm researching trying to do a copper QT for new fish moving forward (using copper power). I had a couple questions to get clarifications on, and then after that I'll probably make a post sharing my QT plan, just to run it by some pros on here and check for flaws.

1. Could you go 14 days without water changes by using prime every 48 hours and ammonia badge along with a cycled bag of seachem matrix for bio filtration? (I read that Prime can actually be used with Copper Power safely, but I'd like to confirm that).

2. Do you need to use a Hanna copper checker if you measure the exact quantity of water in the system and calculate the ppm? Assuming I keep up with water top off of course, I should be able to always calculate the ppm without testing.

3. Can you use reef rally pro at the same time as Copper power or would that be too stressful? Also would using Rally pro treat for anything else additional or would it just be a redundancy?

4. Will all equipment used in copper be permanently contaminated with copper after this, or is there a way to sterilize it for other uses afterwards?

My rough plan so far is to start with an H2O2 bath, followed by 14 days symptom free in copper, and doses of fritz paracleanse (general cure is banned in Canada) and reef rally pro if necessary. Not sure if those are all compatible with copper power as well, but that's something else to check. Thanks in advance for the help!

Im going to list the recommendation made by medic team on bottom.

1. Could you go 14 days without water changes by using prime every 48 hours and ammonia badge along with a cycled bag of seachem matrix for bio filtration? (I read that Prime can actually be used with Copper Power safely, but I'd like to confirm that).
Prime is nothing more than a water conditioner and while it may bond ammonia does not remove it as manufacturer implies.

2. Do you need to use a Hanna copper checker if you measure the exact quantity of water in the system and calculate the ppm? Assuming I keep up with water top off of course, I should be able to always calculate the ppm without testing. Test, so you dont overdose. Hanna is very reliable and user friendly and I would advise something more reliable for ammonia opposed to badge and API tests,

3. Can you use reef rally pro at the same time as Copper power or would that be too stressful? Also would using Rally pro treat for anything else additional or would it just be a redundancy?

Not advised and be very reluctant to mix meds especially when using copper as copper has bonders to make it safe and some meds will dissolve bonders making copper toxic. Ruby rally best for bacterial, gram negative and brooklynella

4. Will all equipment used in copper be permanently contaminated with copper after this, or is there a way to sterilize it for other uses afterwards?

Copper does not contaminate but sticks around often leaving traces. There are media out there to remove copper but most are Not 100% hence recommendation to use a quarantine tank for sole purpose of medicating.

Copper: Best is chelated copper as mentioned below. . . . . .

place fish in Quarantine tank and treat with Coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off
A quarantine tank can be as simple as a starter kit from Walmart which most of the needed essentials.

 

[taylormaximus]

But its best to use some sort of test kit to know you are within therapeutic range.

Test, so you dont overdose. Hanna is very reliable and user friendly and I would advise something more reliable for ammonia opposed to badge and API tests,

Couldn't you just precisely measure the water volume to calculate precisely how much CP you need to add?

Prime is nothing more than a water conditioner and while it may bond ammonia does not remove it as manufacturer implies.

I believe it binds it in a non toxic form for 48 hours and then releases it right? That's why I was thinking to dose the tank with it once every 48 hours. I would have a cycled bag of Matrix as well which should theoretically deal with any ammonia.

 

[taylormaximus]

Prime cannot be used with Cupramine, another amine-based copper product. I avoid all reducing agents like this when treating with copper products. Better to rely on solid biological filtration and/or water changes.

Isn't Prime safe to use with Copper Power though? If not I suppose I could just hope the Matrix is robust enough to keep a cycle going...

In theory yes, but in practice, the copper dose tends to drop and without a test kit, you have no way to determine that.

Does the copper dissapate from the water then? I thought I stays in the water almost indefinitely until its removed? And if I ran it at 2.5 ppm, could the levels drop below 2.0 within a 2 week period?

The big issue is any material that is composed of carbonates. those cannot usually be re-used in an invertebrate system. There is no issue at all if the materials will just be used in quarantine tanks in the future.....

What does that include? Would that just be things like Matrix, or sand and rock? Matrix isn't too expensive so I could probably get a new pack for each new QT batch if it can't be reused.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Isn't Prime safe to use with Copper Power though? If not I suppose I could just hope the Matrix is robust enough to keep a cycle going...

Does the copper dissapate from the water then? I thought I stays in the water almost indefinitely until its removed? And if I ran it at 2.5 ppm, could the levels drop below 2.0 within a 2 week period?

What does that include? Would that just be things like Matrix, or sand and rock? Matrix isn't too expensive so I could probably get a new pack for each new QT batch if it can't be reused.

It does not remain at 100% dose and prime is not safe with copper- it reduces the bonders that keep copper safe for use. To avoid testing- Are you really willing to take that risk? When levels are toxic, fish dont talk - Test kits do. Its simply not worth bypassing testing to achieve precise measurement- How do we achieve precise measurements?
Were not saving anything on test kits when there is loss of livestock.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Isn't Prime safe to use with Copper Power though? If not I suppose I could just hope the Matrix is robust enough to keep a cycle going...

Does the copper dissapate from the water then? I thought I stays in the water almost indefinitely until its removed? And if I ran it at 2.5 ppm, could the levels drop below 2.0 within a 2 week period?

What does that include? Would that just be things like Matrix, or sand and rock? Matrix isn't too expensive so I could probably get a new pack for each new QT batch if it can't be reused.

Nobody has full tested reducing agents with amine-based copper medications. I never use them with copper, just to be safe. We know that Prime can't be used with Cuprisorb, it produces free copper. SeaChem makes both of those products, and their instructions say that. SeaChem is under no requirement to test Prime with Copper Power or Coppersafe, so until somebody runs comprehensive testing, it is best not to use it with copper. This applies to formalin and sodium thiosulfate as well.

Copper does not "dissipate" but it does bind to varying degrees with carbonates in the water. Over time, the copper level will slowly drop, a test kit will tell you by how much. I generally find that coppersafe will drop a bit in the first 48 hours and then will stay relatively constant for 30 days or so. I presume Copper Power is the same.

Copper Power needs to be run for 30 days.

Jay