Help!! Tank is crashing - all my LPS are dying to tissue recession

[JayFish4004]

Yes phos is slightly up. In particular, the euphyllia shows the most stress. Euphyllia requires Stable tank conditions, and is intolerant to major swings in water quality, and is sensitive to almost any level of copper in the water. Since they are a large polyp stony coral, calcium and alkalinity are two very important water parameters that will affect the growth of your coral. This coral will start to die off if the calcium levels are too low. A calcium level of about 400 ppm is just right.
This coral species isn’t terribly picky when it comes to the proper placement in your tank. The trick would really be just to avoid the extremes. Avoid extremely bright locations or areas of very high current, and avoid areas that are too dark or with currents that are too low. Fast currents risk damaging the soft, fleshy polyps and getting an infection. Bright lights will cause bleaching. Insufficient lighting will cause the poor coral to wither away and starve to death.
Hammer corals only require a moderate amount of light for photosynthesis. Do you know your PAR ranges ?

Whatever my issue is seems to really affect hammers and torches the most - birdsnest, duncan, gorgonians and frogspawn havent been phased all that much, its just the dang tissue on the hammers and torches that continue to recede without much else to point to than phosphates being too high and/or swinging a bit.

 

[Lavey29]

Whatever my issue is seems to really affect hammers and torches the most - birdsnest, duncan, gorgonians and frogspawn havent been phased all that much, its just the dang tissue on the hammers and torches that continue to recede without much else to point to than phosphates being too high and/or swinging a bit.

There are also bacteria infections that really target euphyllia like hammers and torches. Ive dealt with this several times and successfully treated with ciprofloaxin.

 

[JayFish4004]

There are also bacteria infections that really target euphyllia like hammers and torches. Ive dealt with this several times and successfully treated with ciprofloaxin.

I wish there was an obvious way to tell bacteria vs stress. I think most of my issues stem from inexperience for sure.

I just measured and somehow dkh is back to 7.9 today - was 8.3 yesterday and I don’t have enough consuming 0.3 per day so not sure what thats about. Nitrates are 20, phosphates are 0.8 (was 0.6 yesterday). I also measured after feeding so that probably didn’t help phos reading.

Is it a bad idea to slowly bring my tank up to 9dkh with sodium bicarbonate or will that do more harm than good at this point? Ideally would like to also figure out why my tank has consistently been at 8.5dkh and all of a sudden is now 7.9 over the last couple weeks. My mixing water is 9.0.

 

[Lavey29]

I wish there was an obvious way to tell bacteria vs stress. I think most of my issues stem from inexperience for sure.

I just measured and somehow dkh is back to 7.9 today - was 8.3 yesterday and I don’t have enough consuming 0.3 per day so not sure what thats about. Nitrates are 20, phosphates are 0.8 (was 0.6 yesterday). I also measured after feeding so that probably didn’t help phos reading.

Is it a bad idea to slowly bring my tank up to 9dkh with sodium bicarbonate or will that do more harm than good at this point? Ideally would like to also figure out why my tank has consistently been at 8.5dkh and all of a sudden is now 7.9 over the last couple weeks. My mixing water is 9.0.

That's not a big swing at all. What does your salt mix at? Do you currently dose alk and cal?

 

[JayFish4004]

That's not a big swing at all. What does your salt mix at? Do you currently dose alk and cal?

Salt mixes at 9.1 dkh and consumption is fairly low. I have never dosed alk or calc and I don’t believe I need to at this point, consumption is pretty minimal and I’m terrified of messing things up. Risking my coral is one thing, risking my fish is something else entirely. They are the reason Im in this hobby.

That being said - I wouldn’t be opposed to doing some “corrective” dosing to get my levels (7.9dkh) back to my salt mix (9.0dkh). If I did it I’d be aiming for bringing it up like 0.1-0.2 per 24 hours max, definitely would take my time there.

Unless there’s a benefit to potentially saving my stressed torches I can wait on this one, but more curious if that’d be a good idea. I used to do biweekly water changes which is why my alk has never really recovered from WC’s.

 

[JayFish4004]

That's not a big swing at all. What does your salt mix at? Do you currently dose alk and cal?

1 of 3 torches is dead, other 2 on their way. 1 of 2 hammers also dead, other one is close behind. This little phosphate crash is gonna cost me $1k+ in lost coral. Not my best week.

 

[Lavey29]

1 of 3 torches is dead, other 2 on their way. 1 of 2 hammers also dead, other one is close behind. This little phosphate crash is gonna cost me $1k+ in lost coral. Not my best week.

If it's any consolation, I went through some euphyllia to early on but learned from the experience. Is there any evidence of BJD in the dead corals? When tank parameters are way off corals get stressed and their immune systems collapse opening the door for BJD to strike.

 

[JayFish4004]

If it's any consolation, I went through some euphyllia to early on but learned from the experience. Is there any evidence of BJD in the dead corals? When tank parameters are way off corals get stressed and their immune systems collapse opening the door for BJD to strike.

It hurts - there are peaks and valleys in life, of course there needs to be in our fish tanks too.

My tank is 20 gallons so I can’t afford to let ‘em get to brown jelly, once they’re at point of no return I send ‘em off. I smelled em both before tossing and no rotten smell.

Here is whats left of the massacre - I am not loving the brown goo coming from the tips of the green torch. Hammer, other torch and frogspawn all looking awful.

Oddly enough montipora digitata, 2 birdnests, anacropora, corky finger gorg and candelabra gorg all doing fine. Duncan has looked better.

 

[Lavey29]

It hurts - there are peaks and valleys in life, of course there needs to be in our fish tanks too.

My tank is 20 gallons so I can’t afford to let ‘em get to brown jelly, once they’re at point of no return I send ‘em off. I smelled em both before tossing and no rotten smell.

Here is whats left of the massacre - I am not loving the brown goo coming from the tips of the green torch. Hammer, other torch and frogspawn all looking awful.

Oddly enough montipora digitata, 2 birdnests, anacropora, corky finger gorg and candelabra gorg all doing fine. Duncan has looked better.

View attachment 2835510View attachment 2835511View attachment 2835512View attachment 2835513View attachment 2835514

If you see brown jelly like goo in the dying heads that's BJD and the coral needs to be removed. BjD can infect all LPS but typically hits euphyllia hard. Dying heads can be fragged off to save the corals. I successfully used ciprofloaxin to treat.

 

[JayFish4004]

If you see brown jelly like goo in the dying heads that's BJD and the coral needs to be removed. BjD can infect all LPS but typically hits euphyllia hard. Dying heads can be fragged off to save the corals. I successfully used ciprofloaxin to treat.

So is this just the fact that euphyllia can’t take phosphate fluctuations and everything else can? It is so confusing why its not hitting everything.

 

[Lavey29]

So is this just the fact that euphyllia can’t take phosphate fluctuations and everything else can? It is so confusing why its not hitting everything.

Not necessarily but when your parameters are way off corals get stressed. Some decline faster then others, some weather the storm. The external signs of stress may take weeks or months to visibly show on the coral. Basically it's deteriorating from the inside out. Euphyllia are prone to BJD under stress. That is possibly what you are dealing with. Run big bag of carbon.

 

[JayFish4004]

Not necessarily but when your parameters are way off corals get stressed. Some decline faster then others, some weather the storm. The external signs of stress may take weeks or months to visibly show on the coral. Basically it's deteriorating from the inside out. Euphyllia are prone to BJD under stress. That is possibly what you are dealing with. Run big bag of carbon.

Should I do anything about the cyano under the sand thats starting to creep up or will that subside once phosphates are under control?

I’m at the point where Im just going to hammer the phos back to ideal conditions and stabilize from there. Hopefully some of the euphyllia make it for the ride, if not I won’t buy another coral until I can control phosphates with my feeding regiment.

If I had to do it all over again - I would’ve gotten the fish and mandarins established first and figured out how to keep them fed with stable phosphates. Either way this is still a fun journey, and Im very thankful Im learning this on a 20 gallon nano with $1k in euphyllia vs a 100 gallon with $10k of euphyllia

I’ve lost my share of coral already which sucks, but nothing sucks like losing all these at once. Just heartbreaking

 

[Lavey29]

Should I do anything about the cyano under the sand thats starting to creep up or will that subside once phosphates are under control?

I’m at the point where Im just going to hammer the phos back to ideal conditions and stabilize from there. Hopefully some of the euphyllia make it for the ride, if not I won’t buy another coral until I can control phosphates with my feeding regiment.

If I had to do it all over again - I would’ve gotten the fish and mandarins established first and figured out how to keep them fed with stable phosphates. Either way this is still a fun journey, and Im very thankful Im learning this on a 20 gallon nano with $1k in euphyllia vs a 100 gallon with $10k of euphyllia

I’ve lost my share of coral already which sucks, but nothing sucks like losing all these at once. Just heartbreaking

That can probably be controlled during water changes and making sure flow is balanced with no dead spots along with stabilizing parameters.

 

[Pkunk35]

just some thoughts, it’s interesting thread,

I’m very surprised how few people think the rapid drop in phos isn’t the issue here as it was said it was thriving until the rapid reduction in phos. When I hear that you dropped from 2.1ppm down to 0.something I think that is a huge reduction in phosphate which will affect animals that consume it (bacteria from what I’ve been hearing/reading/thinking). If done rapidly, as is with chemical media, I’m thinking some of those populations may wane or crash. There are more than several sources that say corals eat bacteria and this is my thought that perhaps some corals are more sensitive to these population’s existence

anecdotally I have also noticed this same effect of torch loss, sps loss when using phos reduction products on newer tanks. I think the story could be different for very old tanks. Personally i believe too low phosphate will absolutely kill torches from three different events I had where phosphate read 0.00 on a Hannah and I saw torch tissue loss (many other corals did not seem effected as well for me). I now make every effort to keep phosphate in the tank including increased feeding and dosing of neophos.

my 2 cents:
is to take out all chemical phosphate reducing media or use it sparingly or with a very slow flow rate through it. Personally although I too chase numbers, I think that kind of movement is too much based on testing…I have done the same thing for both quickly raising and lowering phosphate and never went well if doing rapidly

To me, The high phosphate test indicates you should feed less, water change a little more often (5-10% should be fine just consistent), siphon more. If u use roids, lessen or stop for a bit.

now bc you have lowered your levels so much, I would water change a normal rate, feed normal, do not reduce phosphate via chemical, test phos weekly and make minor changes. Give the torches several months if tissue loss occurred and I would stop dipping unless you see bjd and then use cipro if so.


finally, I think using ICP for phosphate prob isn’t accurate bc of the time it takes to test the sample, but I’m no expert on testing esp phosphate testing which is confusing
Gl and hope it helps!

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

All of the corals were completely thriving at 2.1ppm and only started to deteriorate after dropping them, which I understand the high phos is a problem but maybe not an immediate killer like I seem to be dealing with now.

I’m very surprised how few people think the rapid drop in phos isn’t the issue here as it was said it was thriving until the rapid reduction in phos.

Pkunk already posted most of what I was going to say.

Why did you do the ICP test in the first place? Were you trying to identify the cause of an existing problem? I know we all talk about "number chasing" but I think your tank will often tell you when something is off... Whether or not the phosphates were really 2.1, if the tank had been doing well for a while then it follows that the coral was happy with the status quo*.

I'm really sorry for your losses and appreciate you posting your experience... euphyllia/fimbriaphyllia are my favorite corals and I know losing them is hard.

*Before anyone jumps on my statement above, yes, I know that a lot of coral (especially torches, hammers, etc) can be stressed out by something like sub-par water condition and not show the effects until weeks later. I have posted this idea as well as supporting articles multiple times on this forum.
It is possible that the elevated phos caused the problem, but we don't know for sure how that variable changed over time -- until recently when the OP lowered them rapidly.
What I do know is that there are many tanks with "crazy out of range parameters" that are thriving, so again, letting the tank tell you when something is wrong (rather than relying solely on test results) is still the best course of action IMO.

 

[JayFish4004]

Pkunk already posted most of what I was going to say.

Why did you do the ICP test in the first place? Were you trying to identify the cause of an existing problem? I know we all talk about "number chasing" but I think your tank will often tell you when something is off... Whether or not the phosphates were really 2.1, if the tank had been doing well for a while then it follows that the coral was happy with the status quo*.

I'm really sorry for your losses and appreciate you posting your experience... euphyllia/fimbriaphyllia are my favorite corals and I know losing them is hard.

*Before anyone jumps on my statement above, yes, I know that a lot of coral (especially torches, hammers, etc) can be stressed out by something like sub-par water condition and not show the effects until weeks later. I have posted this idea as well as supporting articles multiple times on this forum.
It is possible that the elevated phos caused the problem, but we don't know for sure how that variable changed over time -- until recently when the OP lowered them rapidly.
What I do know is that there are many tanks with "crazy out of range parameters" that are thriving, so again, letting the tank tell you when something is wrong (rather than relying solely on test results) is still the best course of action IMO.

I did the ICP test to ensure metals weren’t an issue or if it was something else. My Phosphate Hanna Checker can confirm that the ICP test was accurate - I never trust a single test. I typically send out for an ICP once a month or so just for monitoring’s sake.

I hopped on here and called my LFS for advice once I saw that they were sky high at 2.1ppm - and all the advice I was given was “holy crap you gotta reduce those asap”, there was advice to do it slowly, which going from 2.1ppm to 0.3ppm over the course of 60 days felt pretty dang slow to me and tbh not sure how one would go much slower. Pulling media in and out just makes it raise and lower uncontrollably and there is no science to volume of phosphate media to reduction per day.

My tank is currently sitting at 0.4ppm phosphates and I have rowaphos in the back chamber. I think at this point Im just going to rip off the bandaid and deal with my losses.

I threw out my 2-headed gold torch and my green hammer last night. My 3 headed green torch will die very soon, as well as my frogspawn, 2 headed purple torch, purple/green hammer and 2 acans.

My 2 birdsnests, anacropora, digitata, 2 gorgonians and blasto all seem to be doing just fine, which adds another layer of confusion to this ordeal. Seems to be really hitting my euphyllia the hardest.

Here is a photo of the tank on August 8th - phosphates wouldve been sky high at this time (July ICP was 2.1ppm). Everything was thriving.

And here we are today:

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

You're right, lowering over a 2 month period certainly seems slow enough.

It's possible that the alk swing is the ultimate culprit but I don't see anything specific that might have caused it to drop (I believe that it did, I just don't have an answer to why).

Any chance at all that you have a pest in the tank? I know you said you dipped the hammer; could euphyllia eating flatworms be to blame?

Again, I'm sorry for your losses; it makes it worse when you can't identify the cause because you don't know how to prevent it from happening again.

 

[JayFish4004]

You're right, lowering over a 2 month period certainly seems slow enough.

It's possible that the alk swing is the ultimate culprit but I don't see anything specific that might have caused it to drop (I believe that it did, I just don't have an answer to why).

Any chance at all that you have a pest in the tank? I know you said you dipped the hammer; could euphyllia eating flatworms be to blame?

Again, I'm sorry for your losses; it makes it worse when you can't identify the cause because you don't know how to prevent it from happening again.

My alk did drop from 8.5dkh to 7.9dkh through this process, despite what is being said in here I did some more reading on the subject and it does appear to be a thing in smaller tanks. That being said - if alk was to blame wouldn’t my birdsnests have been one of the first to go south? Plus its not a huge drop to begin with and has stabilized now at 7.9dkh.

At this stage I do not believe pests are to blame - I’ve had these euphyllia in the tank for about a year now and have never seen evidence of flatworms.

That being said - hammers have never thrived in my tank, they were just surviving. I think the high phosphates played a part there, but super puzzling why that never seemed to phase the torches or frogspawn.

Appreciate the sympathy - just about the worst case scenario and I never thought in a million years this would happen. If you Google around most people will say they’ve drastically dropped their phos with no issue, and there is nothing I can find out there similar to what Im going through right now.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I did some more reading on the subject and it does appear to be a thing in smaller tanks.

Well, I guess the answer is to get a larger tank

 

[JayFish4004]

Well, I guess the answer is to get a larger tank

Well maybe - had I had a larger tank this would be a much more expensive problem haha.

Here is a shot of the tank and torches - is it safe to assume these torches are goners? I still have hope for the frogspawn but thats about it. The purple torch’s tentacles appear to be disintegating.