Help!! Tank is crashing - all my LPS are dying to tissue recession

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JayFish4004

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Negative, you're not an idiot just learning the ins and outs of this challenging hobby like the rest of us. They can recover with help. Get away from pellets except for occasional snack. Feed frozen and it won't spike nutrients.
Unfortunately I have 2 mandarins who require the TDO pellets - before purchasing those I only fed mysis and never had a nutrient issue and actually had the opposite problem where I couldnt get phosphates, so this whole thing kinda stems from balancing feeding tdo pellets and phosphate control, which is clearly a real battle on my hands lol
 
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Not sure, I have ran cuprasorb and it did not pull iron out. Do you do weekly water changes?
I do and the major elements have always been stable as a result (calc, mag, etc) - but the traces have been tricky. I dose iodine a couple times a week but thats the only dosing i do.
 

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Hanna checker coupled with ATI test - im certain testing is accurate. If its not the rapid drop in phos Im not quite certain what else it could be if we’re ruling out the alk, but maybe its a lack of stability in the phos since once stuff started going south I stopped the phosguard and it has since started going back up again to 0.6 from 0.3


Still, I don't see how a rapid drop in phosphate could have harmed things. Correlation doesn't equal causation so keep that in mind.
 

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I do and the major elements have always been stable as a result (calc, mag, etc) - but the traces have been tricky. I dose iodine a couple times a week but thats the only dosing i do.
A quality salt mix should replenish trace elements fine with weekly changes major elements too unless you have a full stock of corals then alk and cal might need to be dosed but never trace with weekly water changes. Based on your ICP, I would dose like 10ml of chaeto gro per week to balance your trace numbers.
 
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A quality salt mix should replenish trace elements fine with weekly changes major elements too unless you have a full stock of corals then alk and cal might need to be dosed but never trace with weekly water changes. Based on your ICP, I would dose like 10ml of chaeto gro per week to balance your trace numbers.
Okay - I will give that a shot. My hunch is maybe polyfilter is stripping all metals and thats why I cant get zinc to measure. Is it better to do the chaeto gro or individually dose the element with an ATI Zinc bottle? I get nervous blanket dosing, Ive heard of some elements getting overdosed because of it.
 

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Still, I don't see how a rapid drop in phosphate could have harmed things. Correlation doesn't equal causation so keep that in mind.
With absolutely all due respect, please don't take this with the wrong tone as it's not intended as such. But, without a thought in my mind, a swing in phosphate absolutely will tick LPS off, especially euphyllia. Euphyllia does not tolerate swings in most vital parameters, and phosphates are one.

This seems to be a case of trying to do the right thing to make everything better, and achieving the opposite (story of my life lol).

OP- in my humble opinion, i would continue with water changes, keep everything as stable as you possibly can, test like your life depends on it. add amino acids (amin by fauna is awesome, RESTOR by brightwell is great) to help heal recession.

if recession continues with constant stability. a period of ciprofloaxin may be a considerable next step. but for now, keep that tank stable!
 
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A quality salt mix should replenish trace elements fine with weekly changes major elements too unless you have a full stock of corals then alk and cal might need to be dosed but never trace with weekly water changes. Based on your ICP, I would dose like 10ml of chaeto gro per week to balance your trace numbers.
Also on the advice of my LFS I just added 16 grams of Rowaphos to the back chamber to try to get the phos controlled around 0.1
 
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With absolutely all due respect, please don't take this with the wrong tone as it's not intended as such. But, without a thought in my mind, a swing in phosphate absolutely will tick LPS off, especially euphyllia. Euphyllia does not tolerate swings in most vital parameters, and phosphates are one.

This seems to be a case of trying to do the right thing to make everything better, and achieving the opposite (story of my life lol).

OP- in my humble opinion, i would continue with water changes, keep everything as stable as you possibly can, test like your life depends on it. add amino acids (amin by fauna is awesome, RESTOR by brightwell is great) to help heal recession.

if recession continues with constant stability. a period of ciprofloaxin may be a considerable next step. but for now, keep that tank stable!
Haha story of my life too - I will definitely take this as a learning experience. We’ll see in time just how expensive of a learning experience this ends up being.

I had been advised on not dropping them too quickly but had no idea what that truly meant, especially when the numbers were off the charts high. Figured I was going slowly at 60 days - also was not thinking at all about the swinging of phosphates was moreso just worried about bringing them down.

Stability is the name of my game moving forward and I will definitely grab a bottle of amino.

Appreciate the advice - this has been really tough considering it was going so well and I hit the year mark with flying colors only to hit this snag a few months later.
 

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Okay - I will give that a shot. My hunch is maybe polyfilter is stripping all metals and thats why I cant get zinc to measure. Is it better to do the chaeto gro or individually dose the element with an ATI Zinc bottle? I get nervous blanket dosing, Ive heard of some elements getting overdosed because of it.
Any all in one for trace will help but use sparingly over like 3 weeks to get trace numbers corrected. I was using chaeto gro once or twice a week but I also have a fuge but my ICP always had very good trace results so chaeto gro helped that but it doesn't contain iodine. As stated though once you have used it over a few weeks, stop and just let your weekly water changes manage your trace replenish.
 

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Also on the advice of my LFS I just added 16 grams of Rowaphos to the back chamber to try to get the phos controlled around 0.1
I've never used it so can't comment. I use phosguard regularly and a bag of chemipure blue. You could use chemipure elite which has GFO in it for phosphate control. Your problem is the pellet feeding you have to do.
 

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I also recommend PNS probio which is a natural bacteria supplement that gets rid of organic waste. It can help with nitrates and phosphate control and is a natural additive not chemical. I use it weekly.
 

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I am in trouble. Had a thriving tank up until I did an ICP test and noticed phosphates were out of control at 2.1ppm - ended up dropping it to 0.3ppm with phosguard over the span of about 50 days, and some type of process in dropping the phosphates seems to be killing my LPS. Tank is a year and a half old and here are parameters.

My only theory is potentially the alkalinity plummeted due to either the Phosguard or dropping phos. Tank normally runs at 8.7 dkh and the phosguard treatment seemed to have dropped it to 7.9 dkh. After a small water change it went back up to 8.3 dkh last night. Could this swinging be what is causing my issues or is it maybe something else entirely? At a loss trying to figure this out.



Salinity33.91 PSU35.00 PSU-1.09 PSU
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Carbonate hardness7.13 °dKH7.50 °dKH-0.37 °dKH
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Major elements
Chloride18982 mg/l18983 mg/l-1.60 mg/l
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Sodium10547 mg/l10546 mg/l+0.90 mg/l
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Magnesium1302 mg/l1261 mg/l+40.92 mg/l
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Sulfur977.6 mg/l882.1 mg/l+95.54 mg/l
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Calcium420.1 mg/l403.6 mg/l+16.49 mg/l
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Potassium431.1 mg/l391.2 mg/l+39.95 mg/l
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Bromine51.40 mg/l64.24 mg/l-12.84 mg/l
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Strontium8.69 mg/l7.67 mg/l+1.02 mg/l
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Boron4.75 mg/l4.22 mg/l+0.54 mg/l
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Fluorine1.04 mg/l1.25 mg/l-0.21 mg/l
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Minor elements
Lithium81.07 µg/l163.0 µg/l-81.92 µg/l
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Silicon101.7 µg/l95.88 µg/l+5.82 µg/l
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Iodine37.67 µg/l62.32 µg/l-24.65 µg/l
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Barium64.45 µg/l9.59 µg/l+54.86 µg/l
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Molybdenum10.93 µg/l11.51 µg/l-0.57 µg/l
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Nickelu.0.48 µg/l-0.48 µg/l
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Manganeseu.0.96 µg/l-0.96 µg/l
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Arsenicu.1.44 µg/l-1.44 µg/l
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Berylliumu.0.10 µg/l-0.10 µg/l
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Chromeu.0.48 µg/l-0.48 µg/l
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Cobaltu.0.10 µg/l-0.10 µg/l
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Ironu.0.48 µg/l-0.48 µg/l
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Copperu.0.48 µg/l-0.48 µg/l
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Seleniumu.0.48 µg/l-0.48 µg/l
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Silveru.0.10 µg/l-0.10 µg/l
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Vanadiumu.1.44 µg/l-1.44 µg/l
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Zincu.1.92 µg/l-1.92 µg/l
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Tinu.0.48 µg/l-0.48 µg/l
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Nutrients
Nitrate24.21 mg/l2.00 mg/l+22.21 mg/l
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Phosphorus99.41 µg/l14.38 µg/l+85.03 µg/l
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Phosphate0.30 mg/l0.04 mg/l+0.26 mg/l
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Pollutants
Aluminium52.46 µg/l0.10 µg/l+52.36 µg/l
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Antimonyu.0.10 µg/l-0.10 µg/l
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Bismuthu.0.10 µg/l-0.10 µg/l
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Leadu.0.10 µg/l-0.10 µg/l
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Cadmiumu.0.19 µg/l-0.19 µg/l
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Lanthanumu.0 µg/l+0 µg/l
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Thalliumu.0.10 µg/l-0.10 µg/l
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Titaniumu.0.10 µg/l-0.10 µg/l
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Tungstenu.0 µg/l+0 µg/l
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Mercuryu.0 µg/l+0 µg/l

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Recession it is and often due to stress. The stress mentioned can be:
Too much water flow
Too much light
High salinity
High nitrate
Low calcium
Elevated alk

What test kits are you using and when is last time salinity checker was calibrated ?
Any change in type of water used?
What is current phos and nitrate levels?

Alk range you have is acceptable
 
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I've never used it so can't comment. I use phosguard regularly and a bag of chemipure blue. You could use chemipure elite which has GFO in it for phosphate control. Your problem is the pellet feeding you have to do.
Yeah its tricky for sure - pellets are the only thing that works with mandarins since they will sit on the rocks long enough for them to eat it. Plus I have 7 other fish who also enjoy the pellets so I have to feed a little more than Id like to ensure they get some. Its a hassle but I really do love these mandarins so I cant justify losing em.
 
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Recession it is and often due to stress. The stress mentioned can be:
Too much water flow
Too much light
High salinity
High nitrate
Low calcium
Elevated alk

What test kits are you using and when is last time salinity checker was calibrated ?
Any change in type of water used?
What is current phos and nitrate levels?

Alk range you have is acceptable
I think I can rule out flow and light because they have thrived in the tank for so long. Salinity should be dialed in and I routinely calibrate with solution (Hanna checker).

Nitrates are 20-30 - not ideal but shouldnt be killing my coral.

Calcium and Mag are always in good range and stable with water changes verified by monthly ICP tests.

Current phos is 0.6 - it’ll be coming down now that I’ve started in on 16 grams of rowaphos today. Its been swinging.

No changes in water or salt mix.

I have also moved the torches a little bit as well because I got it in my head that maybe being in the sandbed was an issue - so they’ve since been elevated out of the sandbed but in relatively the same spot they were when happy.

I also dipped my green torch for 20min in Seachem Reef Dip hoping that might help only to find today the recession is much worse, so I mightve made matters way worse for that coral by dipping it.
 

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I think I can rule out flow and light because they have thrived in the tank for so long. Salinity should be dialed in and I routinely calibrate with solution (Hanna checker).

Nitrates are 20-30 - not ideal but shouldnt be killing my coral.

Calcium and Mag are always in good range and stable with water changes verified by monthly ICP tests.

Current phos is 0.6 - it’ll be coming down now that I’ve started in on 16 grams of rowaphos today. Its been swinging.
Yes phos is slightly up. In particular, the euphyllia shows the most stress. Euphyllia requires Stable tank conditions, and is intolerant to major swings in water quality, and is sensitive to almost any level of copper in the water. Since they are a large polyp stony coral, calcium and alkalinity are two very important water parameters that will affect the growth of your coral. This coral will start to die off if the calcium levels are too low. A calcium level of about 400 ppm is just right.
This coral species isn’t terribly picky when it comes to the proper placement in your tank. The trick would really be just to avoid the extremes. Avoid extremely bright locations or areas of very high current, and avoid areas that are too dark or with currents that are too low. Fast currents risk damaging the soft, fleshy polyps and getting an infection. Bright lights will cause bleaching. Insufficient lighting will cause the poor coral to wither away and starve to death.
Hammer corals only require a moderate amount of light for photosynthesis. Do you know your PAR ranges ?
 

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With absolutely all due respect, please don't take this with the wrong tone as it's not intended as such. But, without a thought in my mind, a swing in phosphate absolutely will tick LPS off, especially euphyllia. Euphyllia does not tolerate swings in most vital parameters, and phosphates are one.

This seems to be a case of trying to do the right thing to make everything better, and achieving the opposite (story of my life lol).

OP- in my humble opinion, i would continue with water changes, keep everything as stable as you possibly can, test like your life depends on it. add amino acids (amin by fauna is awesome, RESTOR by brightwell is great) to help heal recession.

if recession continues with constant stability. a period of ciprofloaxin may be a considerable next step. but for now, keep that tank stable!


I understand and I have heard that before, but it seems to just be anecdote and the before and after fallacy. I have done rapid drops before without issue, so again it doesn't seem to be guaranteed. That is the problem with anecdotes, they can cancel each other out. Plus, I don't think corals have phosphate diffuse in and out (or at least freely) as they use a phosphate symporter (active transport) to control phosphate intake (I am generalizing here). Therefore, they (again, generalizing since I don't have time for a lit review) shouldn't notice a rapid change in phosphate they are only intaking what they want. I try to take into account that most people's understanding of what corals like/want (i.e. stability) is often without any real experimental evidence or physiological backing. So I would ask, where, in literature, have you found euphyllia to not tolerate these swings?


 
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Yes phos is slightly up. In particular, the euphyllia shows the most stress. Euphyllia requires Stable tank conditions, and is intolerant to major swings in water quality, and is sensitive to almost any level of copper in the water. Since they are a large polyp stony coral, calcium and alkalinity are two very important water parameters that will affect the growth of your coral. This coral will start to die off if the calcium levels are too low. A calcium level of about 400 ppm is just right.
This coral species isn’t terribly picky when it comes to the proper placement in your tank. The trick would really be just to avoid the extremes. Avoid extremely bright locations or areas of very high current, and avoid areas that are too dark or with currents that are too low. Fast currents risk damaging the soft, fleshy polyps and getting an infection. Bright lights will cause bleaching. Insufficient lighting will cause the poor coral to wither away and starve to death.
Hammer corals only require a moderate amount of light for photosynthesis. Do you know your PAR ranges ?
Par is somewhere in the 90-100 range for the euphyllia. I have my lights around 60% blue 10% white. They’ve been fine up until I started dropping the phos so I think the light was okay.
 
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