Help identify and treat a Copper-Banded Butterfly Issue

[arking_mark]

Please help identify and treat the issue....

I've had this CCB for 6 weeks and eating well (half shell clams, frozen mysis, frozen blood worms, frozen clam, & frozen brine). Prior to getting it from a fellow reefer, the CBB was QT'd and doing well in their tank.

I went on vacation for 5 days and came back to find the CBB not looking so good. My observation were:

1. There were some skin issues that included discoloration, some fuzziness, swelling, and specs
2. There was some fish aggression damage on the top of the dosal fin

Pictures:

The CBB was moved to observation tank (where pictures were taken) and is eating great over the last 3 days. I see some skin improvements and suspect this was damage with some infection do to fish aggression. In my absence feedings were not as often or as plentiful and may have caused some fighting. I suspect my White Tailed Bristletooth Tang.

The spots have me worried...as ich was a past bane of my aquarium journey. With this 2+ year old tank, only QT'd fish go in after 2-3 weeks in my observation tank.

I'm treating this as damage with some infection and waiting to see if it clears up by itself.

I have Cipro and other medications if needed.

Does my diagnosis and wait and see approach sound reasonable? If not, recommendations please.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Please help identify and treat the issue....

I've had this CCB for 6 weeks and eating well (half shell clams, frozen mysis, frozen blood worms, frozen clam, & frozen brine). Prior to getting it from a fellow reefer, the CBB was QT'd and doing well in their tank.

I went on vacation for 5 days and came back to find the CBB not looking so good. My observation were:

1. There were some skin issues that included discoloration, some fuzziness, swelling, and specs
2. There was some fish aggression damage on the top of the dosal fin

Pictures:
View attachment 2957914View attachment 2957915View attachment 2957916View attachment 2957917

The CBB was moved to observation tank (where pictures were taken) and is eating great over the last 3 days. I see some skin improvements and suspect this was damage with some infection do to fish aggression. In my absence feedings were not as often or as plentiful and may have caused some fighting. I suspect my White Tailed Bristletooth Tang.

The spots have me worried...as ich was a past bane of my aquarium journey. With this 2+ year old tank, only QT'd fish go in after 2-3 weeks in my observation tank.

I'm treating this as damage with some infection and waiting to see if it clears up by itself.

I have Cipro and other medications if needed.

Does my diagnosis and wait and see approach sound reasonable? If not, recommendations please.

Forget cipro- thats best left for humans. The appearance is bacterial in nature and best treatment is Seachem Kanaplex in a quarantine setting with added O2 via air stone. Fish eating is great news as it looks somewhat thin and diet for these are important.
Some foods that are good and that my CBB likes are :
LRS Herbivore diet
Mysis shrimp
spirulina brine shrimp
small plankton
chopped clam and clam on the half shell
massticks food

Add selcon vitamins to the foods occasionally

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Please help identify and treat the issue....

I've had this CCB for 6 weeks and eating well (half shell clams, frozen mysis, frozen blood worms, frozen clam, & frozen brine). Prior to getting it from a fellow reefer, the CBB was QT'd and doing well in their tank.

I went on vacation for 5 days and came back to find the CBB not looking so good. My observation were:

1. There were some skin issues that included discoloration, some fuzziness, swelling, and specs
2. There was some fish aggression damage on the top of the dosal fin

Pictures:
View attachment 2957914View attachment 2957915View attachment 2957916View attachment 2957917

The CBB was moved to observation tank (where pictures were taken) and is eating great over the last 3 days. I see some skin improvements and suspect this was damage with some infection do to fish aggression. In my absence feedings were not as often or as plentiful and may have caused some fighting. I suspect my White Tailed Bristletooth Tang.

The spots have me worried...as ich was a past bane of my aquarium journey. With this 2+ year old tank, only QT'd fish go in after 2-3 weeks in my observation tank.

I'm treating this as damage with some infection and waiting to see if it clears up by itself.

I have Cipro and other medications if needed.

Does my diagnosis and wait and see approach sound reasonable? If not, recommendations please.

I would just watch it for now.

I will say this fish is pretty skinny - typical for CBB, but it needs to be reversed ASAP. Feed small amounts, but really often.

Jay

 

[Weeb]

Please help identify and treat the issue....

I've had this CCB for 6 weeks and eating well (half shell clams, frozen mysis, frozen blood worms, frozen clam, & frozen brine). Prior to getting it from a fellow reefer, the CBB was QT'd and doing well in their tank.

I went on vacation for 5 days and came back to find the CBB not looking so good. My observation were:

1. There were some skin issues that included discoloration, some fuzziness, swelling, and specs
2. There was some fish aggression damage on the top of the dosal fin

Pictures:
View attachment 2957914View attachment 2957915View attachment 2957916View attachment 2957917

The CBB was moved to observation tank (where pictures were taken) and is eating great over the last 3 days. I see some skin improvements and suspect this was damage with some infection do to fish aggression. In my absence feedings were not as often or as plentiful and may have caused some fighting. I suspect my White Tailed Bristletooth Tang.

The spots have me worried...as ich was a past bane of my aquarium journey. With this 2+ year old tank, only QT'd fish go in after 2-3 weeks in my observation tank.

I'm treating this as damage with some infection and waiting to see if it clears up by itself.

I have Cipro and other medications if needed.

Does my diagnosis and wait and see approach sound reasonable? If not, recommendations please.

This fish definitely doesn't have much in the way of stored fat. (Marine fish don't store fat like people do at the belly, but above).

Please feed a variety of ocean pods and mysis small enough for its mouth. Get freeze-dried small pods and soak in marine fish vitamins with other soaks using marine fish fat supplements. Avoid brine shrimp for right now and then later, brine shrimp gut loaded with HUFA or spirulina. I'd also try to find fish roe (fish eggs) and try some Cyclopeze (Cyclop-eze).

Like Jay recommended. Feed small quantities very often.

 

[Weeb]

Please help identify and treat the issue....

I've had this CCB for 6 weeks and eating well (half shell clams, frozen mysis, frozen blood worms, frozen clam, & frozen brine). Prior to getting it from a fellow reefer, the CBB was QT'd and doing well in their tank.

I went on vacation for 5 days and came back to find the CBB not looking so good. My observation were:

1. There were some skin issues that included discoloration, some fuzziness, swelling, and specs
2. There was some fish aggression damage on the top of the dosal fin

Pictures:
View attachment 2957914View attachment 2957915View attachment 2957916View attachment 2957917

The CBB was moved to observation tank (where pictures were taken) and is eating great over the last 3 days. I see some skin improvements and suspect this was damage with some infection do to fish aggression. In my absence feedings were not as often or as plentiful and may have caused some fighting. I suspect my White Tailed Bristletooth Tang.

The spots have me worried...as ich was a past bane of my aquarium journey. With this 2+ year old tank, only QT'd fish go in after 2-3 weeks in my observation tank.

I'm treating this as damage with some infection and waiting to see if it clears up by itself.

I have Cipro and other medications if needed.

Does my diagnosis and wait and see approach sound reasonable? If not, recommendations please.

Personally, I'm not comfortable with a 2-3 week quarantine. I've personally kept my marine life in quarantine for at least 6 weeks.

 

[arking_mark]

I would just watch it for now.

I will say this fish is pretty skinny - typical for CBB, but it needs to be reversed ASAP. Feed small amounts, but really often.

Jay

It wasn't this thin when I left...but it wasn't fat either.

I'm feeding like 6-8 times a day a frozen mix. It's eating very well.

 

[arking_mark]

Personally, I'm not comfortable with a 2-3 week quarantine. I've personally kept my marine life in quarantine for at least 6 weeks.

I only buy QT'd fish or in this case, a fish from a fellow reefer who got this guy QT'd. So to stress the fish through another round of QT isn't for me. I just do a 2-3 week observational period in a 30 gal Observation Tank setup the same as my Display Tank. I get a feel for the fish, it's eating needs and habits, and hopefully catch anything bad before entering the display tank.

When I do QT, I do tank transfer method.

 

[arking_mark]

Forget cipro- thats best left for humans. The appearance is bacterial in nature and best treatment is Seachem Kanaplex in a quarantine setting with added O2 via air stone. Fish eating is great news as it looks somewhat thin and diet for these are important.
Some foods that are good and that my CBB likes are :
LRS Herbivore diet
Mysis shrimp
spirulina brine shrimp
small plankton
chopped clam and clam on the half shell
massticks food

Add selcon vitamins to the foods occasionally

I also have KanaPlex. I'm not sure the feed method is effective and I'm not a fan of dosing the observation tank (I can if needed).

Is there a bathing method like Cipro?

I have my CBB eating out of a fish trap in the OT...so super easy to transfer to bath and back with little stress.

 

[arking_mark]

This fish definitely doesn't have much in the way of stored fat. (Marine fish don't store fat like people do at the belly, but above).

Please feed a variety of ocean pods and mysis small enough for its mouth. Get freeze-dried small pods and soak in marine fish vitamins with other soaks using marine fish fat supplements. Avoid brine shrimp for right now and then later, brine shrimp gut loaded with HUFA or spirulina. I'd also try to find fish roe (fish eggs) and try some Cyclopeze (Cyclop-eze).

Like Jay recommended. Feed small quantities very often.

It's currently eating a frozen mix of 5 different frozen products: PE Mysis, SB Mysis, Baby Blood Worms, chopped clams, and SB Variety Pack.

It focuses mostly on the bigger PE Mysis...but eats some of the other stuff to.

Is this sufficient nutrition? Or do I need to add something?

 

[Weeb]

It's currently eating a frozen mix of 5 different frozen products: PE Mysis, SB Mysis, Baby Blood Worms, chopped clams, and SB Variety Pack.

It focuses mostly on the bigger PE Mysis...but eats some of the other stuff to.

Is this sufficient nutrition? Or do I need to add something?

Might I suggest some items?

Vitamins. You can choose one of these:
Vita-Chem Marine
Zoe
S.E.L.C.O. Boost

Fat supplements. You can choose one of these:
Zoecon
Selcon

Frozen foods you are using are good. Try some freeze dried pods (e.g., San Francisco brand mysis, Calanus sp.). The reason for the freeze-dried suggestion is that you can get a 'better' soaking in the vitamin or fat supplement before feeding.

I'd say the fish needs more fat in its diet. One of the sources of fat is the Cyclop-eze like I mentioned before. Another good source is decapsulated brine shrimp. Get the ones that don't hatch (e.g., from Brine Shrimp Direct). They are 'mini-packets' of fats and amino acids (this and newly hatched brine shrimp are the best). This in addition to using one of the fat supplements. Hopefully the CBB will 'see' the little brine shrimp eggs.

Use vitamin soak every other day for this guy. Use a fat supplement about once a week. Do this for about a month, then reduce soaks to once a week for vitamins.

All of these freeze-dried products are deemed disease-free for the marine aquarist.

Good luck! If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

 

[arking_mark]

Might I suggest some items?

Vitamins. You can choose one of these:
Vita-Chem Marine
Zoe
S.E.L.C.O. Boost

Fat supplements. You can choose one of these:
Zoecon
Selcon

Frozen foods you are using are good. Try some freeze dried pods (e.g., San Francisco brand mysis, Calanus sp.). The reason for the freeze-dried suggestion is that you can get a 'better' soaking in the vitamin or fat supplement before feeding.

I'd say the fish needs more fat in its diet. One of the sources of fat is the Cyclop-eze like I mentioned before. Another good source is decapsulated brine shrimp. Get the ones that don't hatch (e.g., from Brine Shrimp Direct). They are 'mini-packets' of fats and amino acids (this and newly hatched brine shrimp are the best). This in addition to using one of the fat supplements. Hopefully the CBB will 'see' the little brine shrimp eggs.

Use vitamin soak every other day for this guy. Use a fat supplement about once a week. Do this for about a month, then reduce soaks to once a week for vitamins.

All of these freeze-dried products are deemed disease-free for the marine aquarist.

Good luck! If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Big thanks! Recommendations that I can follow!

 

[Weeb]

I only buy QT'd fish or in this case, a fish from a fellow reefer who got this guy QT'd. So to stress the fish through another round of QT isn't for me. I just do a 2-3 week observational period in a 30 gal Observation Tank setup the same as my Display Tank. I get a feel for the fish, it's eating needs and habits, and hopefully catch anything bad before entering the display tank.

When I do QT, I do tank transfer method.

If you truely trust the fellow reefer (and I hope the fellow reefer had the fish for at least a couple of months) and you've looked at the tank the CBB came from (for any signs of disease or problems on other fish), then I understand the shortened QT.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I also have KanaPlex. I'm not sure the feed method is effective and I'm not a fan of dosing the observation tank (I can if needed).

Is there a bathing method like Cipro?

I have my CBB eating out of a fish trap in the OT...so super easy to transfer to bath and back with little stress.

No cipro
Bathing method is Ruby Rally Pro - safest but as Jay stated- no need to treat yet. Focus on water quality and diet as I mentioned/suggested above. Ive had my CBB for 4 years and it has been filled and an eating machine from day one.

 

[Weeb]

No cipro
Bathing method is Ruby Rally Pro - safest but as Jay stated- no need to treat yet. Focus on water quality and diet as I mentioned/suggested above. Ive had my CBB for 4 years and it has been filled and an eating machine from day one.

I love CBBs. My first butterfly fish. Once they figure out that food 'comes from above' they are eating machines!

 

[vetteguy53081]

I love CBBs. My first butterfly fish. Once they figure out that food 'comes from above' they are eating machines!

 

[arking_mark]

Just a quick update as it's been a week since I moved the CBB to the observation tank.

Treatment has been to feed 6 plus times a day and observe.

The CBB continues to eat well my frozen mix. However, the Vitachem and freeze dried mysis doesn't work well as the mysis just usually float where the CBB doesn't go after them.

The skin issues have gotten better but have not gone away yet. See pictures below...

Any thoughts on if this is something other than an infection?

 

[Weeb]

Just a quick update as it's been a week since I moved the CBB to the observation tank.

Treatment has been to feed 6 plus times a day and observe.

The CBB continues to eat well my frozen mix. However, the Vitachem and freeze dried mysis doesn't work well as the mysis just usually float where the CBB doesn't go after them.

The skin issues have gotten better but have not gone away yet. See pictures below...

View attachment 2964771

View attachment 2964778

View attachment 2964773

Any thoughts on if this is something other than an infection?

Regarding freeze-dried mysis. What I've done, after soaking in vitamins, is to squeeze the air out of the mysis. I tried putting in a spoon then squeezing another spoon on top of it. I've just tried to press the air out but having the soaked mysis on a dish, then pressing it with the curved end of the spoon. If this doesn't do it, get frozen mysis, let thaw in a baby brine shrimp net to drain off liquid, then soak that in the supplement.

The fish is thin. Be sure to add a fat supplement to its diet. Feed it often.

I'd also recommend you add beta glucan to its food (without the supplemental soaking). Beta glucan is the same beta glucan humans use and can be bought from a health food store. You want this fish to eat about 20mg of beta glucan every day. Beta glucan helps the fish restore its natural immune response to some diseases and conditions. I recommend a 7-day treatment with this.

Do these 'things' have any particular characteristic(s): fuzzy growth (like hair standing on end), do they come and go, etc.)?

Did you try the Ruby Reef's Rally Pro yet?

If you see the fish improving then do the above and watching it. Any signs of it getting worse, let us know.

 

[arking_mark]

Regarding freeze-dried mysis. What I've done, after soaking in vitamins, is to squeeze the air out of the mysis. I tried putting in a spoon then squeezing another spoon on top of it. I've just tried to press the air out but having the soaked mysis on a dish, then pressing it with the curved end of the spoon. If this doesn't do it, get frozen mysis, let thaw in a baby brine shrimp net to drain off liquid, then soak that in the supplement.

The fish is thin. Be sure to add a fat supplement to its diet. Feed it often.

I'd also recommend you add beta glucan to its food (without the supplemental soaking). Beta glucan is the same beta glucan humans use and can be bought from a health food store. You want this fish to eat about 20mg of beta glucan every day. Beta glucan helps the fish restore its natural immune response to some diseases and conditions. I recommend a 7-day treatment with this.

Do these 'things' have any particular characteristic(s): fuzzy growth (like hair standing on end), do they come and go, etc.)?

Did you try the Ruby Reef's Rally Pro yet?

If you see the fish improving then do the above and watching it. Any signs of it getting worse, let us know.

To me the, the skin looks irritated, almost like scrapes. It had worse ones around the top of its head that where kinda puffy as well...those seem to be gone.

I've been feeding it several times a day for a week and have not seen any fattening...prior to the issues it was fatter around the head.

I'll try the trick with the freeze dried mysis.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Just a quick update as it's been a week since I moved the CBB to the observation tank.

Treatment has been to feed 6 plus times a day and observe.

The CBB continues to eat well my frozen mix. However, the Vitachem and freeze dried mysis doesn't work well as the mysis just usually float where the CBB doesn't go after them.

The skin issues have gotten better but have not gone away yet. See pictures below...

View attachment 2964771

View attachment 2964778

View attachment 2964773

Any thoughts on if this is something other than an infection?

Too me, the fish looks thinner and the mucus on the sides seems worse. Also, the nip in its dorsal fin hasn't grown back in. Of course, you are seeing the fish in person, but also, seeing it every day may not give you a chance to notice gradual decline over time.

The skin mucus may or may not be an immediate issue. It is caused by some irritation, and sometimes, for o apparent reason at all. Fish normally have mucus on their skin, but under certain circumstances, it becomes thick enough to really show up. The irritation can be disease (flukes, protozoans) or even bacteria. It can also be due to water quality problems and "unidentified stress".

Ultimately, I've seen so many copperbands lose ground like this - eating, but not enough to put on body mass, IMO the prognosis is poor. If you could move the fish to an established tank with lots of inverts, but no other fish, and feed it REALLY well, you might be able to bring it around, but unless you are underfeeding it, you likely will not be able to reverse the issue in the tank that it is currently in.

I think most of the issues with CBB are due to their inherent delicate nature, as well as probable collection with cyanide. The best CBB that I get come direct from Australia.

While "feeding the best diet possible" is an important goal, remember that improving the diet alone is not really a cure for an acute issue, and most dietary deficiencies (except not enough calories) take months to show up.

Jay

 

[Tamberav]

My copperband was skinny on purchase, I turned it into a chonk by feeding fish frenzy LRS in one of those two little fishes feeding pouches. Just add a frozen chunk and they will pick and pick and pick. It did take a little bit for the copperband to learn where the food was.

They don’t have to try and get stuff out if the water column and the ingredients in LRS are amazing.

This is my copperband, video was a long while ago but it shows how they can eat out of it:

Copperband eating LRS out of mesh pouch

youtube.com