Help diagnose coral losses

[Hockey9999]

Hey!

Hoping the community may be able to help diagnose some issues I’m having, it’s getting discouraging and am about ready to give up!

Background - I had a 60 gallon cube for about 10 years, the last few years the tank was neglected pretty badly. I transferred to a new tank ~8 months ago. New sand, about 50% of the water and all existing rock, plus whatever coral was left. Mostly a ton of devils hand leathers, GSP and a bunch of green rhodactis mushrooms.

Once I started testing again I realized PO4 was off the chart using a Hanna Phosphate ULR, nitrates were fairly high but everything else was reasonable. I started slowly getting PO4 down using small amounts of PhosphateRx (lanthanum) and nitrates through water changes. There was a ton of it bound in the old rock.

When everything was under control I added some “easier” corals, I’ll name a few but they are all either dying or long gone! So far I’ve killed duncan’s, acans, a Goni/alvi or two, a chalice, a hammer… it goes on and on. Recently the years’ old mushrooms, probably dozens, have been melting one by one after growing for years.

Leathers and GSP are fine/growing, and a bunch of recently added zoas are alive and fully open but not really growing at all. A added BTA several months ago which split and appears to be doing really well, the smaller piece is now bigger than the original and the original is growing too.

Some details about my system and parameters as of a few days ago are below. Happy to provide more detail if anyone thinks it’ll help. The photo is from 7/8 before the mushrooms started melting, the green alvi front left is basically gone, 2 of 3 goni's appear to be on their way out, all the acans are gone. And I know, the tang needs to be rehomed, he was a 10 year old mistake.

I usually test 2x/week, a little behind this week. ICP results from April attached as well, and I have another that I'll get in the mail soon.

Could the somewhat high phosphates be causing essentially all LPS to die?

• Waterbox 85.3
• 2x XR15 G6 Blue. AB+ at 60%. About 100 PAR at the sand tested with a PARWise
• 2x MP40’s (both well under 30%)
• Aquamaxx Cones Q1 skimmer that’s working well, on 24/7
• Socks changed every 2-3 days
• I have a RO/DI, well maintained
• Aquaforest reef salt
• Dosing All For Reef on a dosing pump, only 3-4ML/day, low consumption because everything is dead!
• Refugium with gracilaria and Chaeto, growing well. AI Blade Refugium at 80% opposite display
• I feed a cube of mysis/day and a moderate amount of pellets. Occasional reefroids
• No nuisance algae at all
• Fish - 2 small clowns, a leopard wrasse, blotchy anthias, cherub angel, diamond goby and the way-too-large hippo tang.

I appreciate any help!!

 

[Icryhard]

Salinity can be reduced a little bit.
Manganese can be upped.
Magnesium kind of high. I'd aim for 1400.
Aluminium kind of high as well. Try to reduce this as well

 

[Hockey9999]

Salinity can be reduced a little bit.
Manganese can be upped.
Magnesium kind of high. I'd aim for 1400.
Aluminium kind of high as well. Try to reduce this as well

Thanks! The salinity and magnesium were corrected prior to adding anything that has since died, that ICP was from 4 months ago, salinity is at 1.026 (Tropic Marin floating Hydrometer) and Mag was at 1345 as of a test 10 days ago.

Based on this article from @Randy Holmes-Farley , I didn't think Aluminum at ~.03ppm (30.35 µg/) was high enough to cause an issue.

 

[Icryhard]

Thanks! The salinity and magnesium were corrected prior to adding anything that has since died, that ICP was from 4 months ago, salinity is at 1.026 (Tropic Marin floating Hydrometer) and Mag was at 1345 as of a test 10 days ago.

Based on this article from @Randy Holmes-Farley , I didn't think Aluminum at ~.03ppm (30.35 µg/) was high enough to cause an issue.

That could be very much the case, but do you really want to let it be that high when something is causing death? Aside from that I wonder how develop the water column is to upkeep corals. Your po4 could also be reduced a bit.

 

[Hockey9999]

That could be very much the case, but do you really want to let it be that high when something is causing death? Aside from that I wonder how develop the water column is to upkeep corals. Your po4 could also be reduced a bit.

If it's an issue I certainly want to address it, I just didn't think it was the root cause at that level.

I'll have to research how to remove Aluminum. I also have no idea how it's being introduced.

I've been battling PO4 for months, transferring 10yr old rock was probably a huge mistake but after months its at least stable, hopefully I can keep bringing it down without needing to use much more lanthanum - I have not tried GFO at this point, but my refugium - while growing well - can't seem to keep up.

 

[Icryhard]

If it's an issue I certainly want to address it, I just didn't think it was the root cause at that level.

I'll have to research how to remove Aluminum. I also have no idea how it's being introduced.

I've been battling PO4 for months, transferring 10yr old rock was probably a huge mistake but after months its at least stable, hopefully I can keep bringing it down without needing to use much more lanthanum - I have not tried GFO at this point, but my refugium - while growing well - can't seem to keep up.

Do you have chaeto? That consumes nitrates and po4 like madman.

 

[Hockey9999]

Do you have chaeto? That consumes nitrates and po4 like madman.

I struggled to get Chaeto to grow but have been successful with Pom Pom Gracilaria. A few bits of Chaeto survived and after months are starting to grow pretty quickly, but my fuge is still like 85% Gracilaria right now.

 

[Icryhard]

I struggled to get Chaeto to grow but have been successful with Pom Pom Gracilaria. A few bits of Chaeto survived and after months are starting to grow pretty quickly, but my fuge is still like 85% Gracilaria right now.

Great to hear. If you could send an ICP test with recent statistics we could see what's up.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hey!

Hoping the community may be able to help diagnose some issues I’m having, it’s getting discouraging and am about ready to give up!

Background - I had a 60 gallon cube for about 10 years, the last few years the tank was neglected pretty badly. I transferred to a new tank ~8 months ago. New sand, about 50% of the water and all existing rock, plus whatever coral was left. Mostly a ton of devils hand leathers, GSP and a bunch of green rhodactis mushrooms.

Once I started testing again I realized PO4 was off the chart using a Hanna Phosphate ULR, nitrates were fairly high but everything else was reasonable. I started slowly getting PO4 down using small amounts of PhosphateRx (lanthanum) and nitrates through water changes. There was a ton of it bound in the old rock.

When everything was under control I added some “easier” corals, I’ll name a few but they are all either dying or long gone! So far I’ve killed duncan’s, acans, a Goni/alvi or two, a chalice, a hammer… it goes on and on. Recently the years’ old mushrooms, probably dozens, have been melting one by one after growing for years.

Leathers and GSP are fine/growing, and a bunch of recently added zoas are alive and fully open but not really growing at all. A added BTA several months ago which split and appears to be doing really well, the smaller piece is now bigger than the original and the original is growing too.

Some details about my system and parameters as of a few days ago are below. Happy to provide more detail if anyone thinks it’ll help. The photo is from 7/8 before the mushrooms started melting, the green alvi front left is basically gone, 2 of 3 goni's appear to be on their way out, all the acans are gone. And I know, the tang needs to be rehomed, he was a 10 year old mistake.

I usually test 2x/week, a little behind this week. ICP results from April attached as well, and I have another that I'll get in the mail soon.

Could the somewhat high phosphates be causing essentially all LPS to die?

• Waterbox 85.3
• 2x XR15 G6 Blue. AB+ at 60%. About 100 PAR at the sand tested with a PARWise
• 2x MP40’s (both well under 30%)
• Aquamaxx Cones Q1 skimmer that’s working well, on 24/7
• Socks changed every 2-3 days
• I have a RO/DI, well maintained
• Aquaforest reef salt
• Dosing All For Reef on a dosing pump, only 3-4ML/day, low consumption because everything is dead!
• Refugium with gracilaria and Chaeto, growing well. AI Blade Refugium at 80% opposite display
• I feed a cube of mysis/day and a moderate amount of pellets. Occasional reefroids
• No nuisance algae at all
• Fish - 2 small clowns, a leopard wrasse, blotchy anthias, cherub angel, diamond goby and the way-too-large hippo tang.

I appreciate any help!!

I see po4 as still elevated. You want it to hover in area of .1, not much higher or lower. No3 is also up there but not dangerous to these corals. Salinity- assure you are calibrated and not getting false readings
Lethers in the tank can or may release a toxin known as terpenes. High grade carbon or chemipure blue will alleviate these toxins and help reduce po4. Chemipure Elite will definitely reduce po4
Assure you are providing moderate light and flow as corals listed will thrive well in this type of light and flow.

 

[Hockey9999]

I see po4 as still elevated. You want it to hover in area of .1, not much higher or lower. No3 is also up there but not dangerous to these corals. Salinity- assure you are calibrated and not getting false readings
Lethers in the tank can or may release a toxin known as terpenes. High grade carbon or chemipure blue will alleviate these toxins and help reduce po4. Chemipure Elite will definitely reduce po4
Assure you are providing moderate light and flow as corals listed will thrive well in this type of light and flow.

Thanks! I forgot to mention that I've been running BRS ROX Carbon basically 24x7, but only in a media bag in a sump baffle. I wondered if I had too many leathers in a small system, they are very large.

I don't think light and flow are the issue but maybe I'm being too conservative? The XR15's are at 60% which is producing ~100 PAR at the sand (measured with a PARWise) and MP40's at an average of ~30% throughout the day, which seems like a lot in a shallow 3ft tank.

I'll keep working on PO4, PhosphateRx/Lanthanum has been very predictable in terms of amount added vs. PO4 removed but I still struggle to keep it below .15-.2, I suspect there is still a lot bound in the old rock despite months of effort to remove it.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks! I forgot to mention that I've been running BRS ROX Carbon basically 24x7, but only in a media bag in a sump baffle. I wondered if I had too many leathers in a small system, they are very large.

I don't think light and flow are the issue but maybe I'm being too conservative? The XR15's are at 60% which is producing ~100 PAR at the sand (measured with a PARWise) and MP40's at an average of ~30% throughout the day, which seems like a lot in a shallow 3ft tank.

I'll keep working on PO4, PhosphateRx/Lanthanum has been very predictable in terms of amount added vs. PO4 removed but I still struggle to keep it below .15-.2, I suspect there is still a lot bound in the old rock despite months of effort to remove it.

100-120 PAR should be fine.

 

[Lavey29]

I have a similar size tank. Have you checked all equipment for rusty parts?

I doubt your par numbers are correct. I have the exact same lights and run them at 100% intensity on AB setting to get usable par for my mixed reef tank. I verified with a current model par meter.

I run my MP40s at 26% during the day and 20 overnight.

 

[Hockey9999]

I have a similar size tank. Have you checked all equipment for rusty parts?

I doubt your par numbers are correct. I have the exact same lights and run them at 100% intensity on AB setting to get usable par for my mixed reef tank. I verified with a current model par meter.

I run my MP40s at 26% during the day and 20 overnight.

While not impossible I'd be shocked (and disappointed) if anything is rusty. Every piece of equipment in the tank is new within the last 8 months. 2 MP40's, a Vectra S2, Innovative Marine heater, new skimmer, etc. I'll check for rust but had everything out for cleaning within the last 4-6 weeks (after that ICP) with no visible rust or damage that I could see.

I'm not sure why my PAR readings would be incorrect - I purchased this PARwise meter a while back and even tested through the feed door on my Lid to account for any light blockage caused by the black mesh. Is your tank deeper? Mine is only 36x24x16

 

[Lavey29]

While not impossible I'd be shocked (and disappointed) if anything is rusty. Every piece of equipment in the tank is new within the last 8 months. 2 MP40's, a Vectra S2, Innovative Marine heater, new skimmer, etc. I'll check for rust but had everything out for cleaning within the last 4-6 weeks (after that ICP) with no visible rust or damage that I could see.

I'm not sure why my PAR readings would be incorrect - I purchased this PARwise meter a while back and even tested through the feed door on my Lid to account for any light blockage caused by the black mesh. Is your tank deeper? Mine is only 36x24x16

Mine is 36x22x22. I was running lights in the 50 to 70 range for quite awhile thinking I had plenty of par but corals struggled with no growth. After par checking and seeing how ridiculously low my par was, I slowly ramped up to 100% and everything in the tank took off growing like weeds now. To much growth honestly and lots of crowding issues now.

 

[Hockey9999]

I'll test PAR again and maybe slowly increase the intensity a bit. I'm sure it's not linear but the extra 6" of depth means your light needs to penetrate 25% further to reach the sand than mine.

I also know that the readings from the PARwise and Apogee meters can't be directly compared (for scientific reasons I don't understand!)