Fish dying during quarantine...

[Salomlar]

I quarantined about 10 small fish in a 60 liter tank with a sponge filter and biomedia filter.

I first treated the tank with copper, so I had to turn off the skimmer and removed the charcoal filter.

The fish seemed to be in quite good condition when I received them.

However, after the first week, fish started dying, some with no visible symptoms. Some with visible sores (pic attached).

They would be seemingly fine at night, dead in the morning.

I tried treating with kanaplex first, then prazipro, added a bit of hydrogen peroxide at night....

I was doing weekly water changes of 15 - 20 liters.

They just kept dying.

I moved the remaining survivors into the main tank (with full filtration, UV filter, and skimmer) and now they're doing fine.

How do I keep the water in the QT safe without the full filtration?

Thanks!

Seth

 

[naterealbig]

Hey Seth,

I treat all incoming fish w/ Copper Sulfate (2ppm), and General Cure which includes Metronidazole and Praziquantil. This will eliminate ich, velvet, uronema, external (and some internal) parasites, and a few other nasties. The truth is however, this treatment is very aggressive and so, it is imperative that you start your process with the most healthy specimens.

Here are a few things I do to try to minimize attrition (which works almost all of the time - I have successfully quarantined different species of anthias, angels, and wrasses):

1. Start the QT tank at 1ppm Chelated Copper Sulfate (or equivalent copper-based medication [I prefer CopperSafe]) when first adding fish.
   1. I verify copper levels with Hanna High Range Copper Test Kit.
   2. This will thwart (but not eradicate) progression of ich and other common illnesses while giving some time for the fish to acclimate to the copper.
   3. Unless I observe a disease on the fish that is progressing (this would be the exception, as you started with a very healthy fish, right?) I maintain the 1ppm copper level until I observe the fish feeding regularly. Most fish will experience a suppressed appetite at first.
2. Once the fish are eating regularly, I increase copper levels in the quarantine from 1ppm to 2ppm.
3. The day after increasing copper, I begin dosing General Cure at recommended dose once every three days, for 9 days total (dose on day 1, day 4, day 7)
   1. I keep an air stone in the tank and start running the first couple days of dosing the antibiotic.
4. For what it's worth; while sponge filters are a common recommendation for fish quarantine systems, I much prefer Penguin BioWheel filters. They oxygenate the water well, and I believe they propagate aerobic bacteria better than fully submerged media (they are in essence a wet-dry filter - excellent ammonia processing properties).

Couple questions for you:

1. What species of fish did you have in the QT?
2. Did you start with healthy specimens? Full belly, observed eating at store, no sores/lesions, clear eyes, swimming "normally"?
3. What copper product were you using, and what dose did you dose?
4. How did you verify the copper levels?
5. Did you check for ammonia? If so, which test kit? (I use Hanna for checking ammonia as well, however I have never had a fish die due to an ammonia spike in my QT).

 

[LordofCinder]

What jumps out at me is adding 10 fish into a 16 gallon tank. That is a recipe for dead fish, every time. Try 1 or 2 or 3 next time. Or get a bigger QT tank

 

[mfinn]

I quarantined about 10 small fish in a 60 liter tank with a sponge filter and biomedia filter.

First question I have, has the sponge filter and bio media been fully cycled? How much and how big?
10 fish in that small of a tank could quickly over power a small functioning sponge filter with ammonia.
Maybe get a bigger qt tank and larger bio filter.
Start the fish off in the qt tank with no medication unless there is a active infection or ick attach.
Get the fish eating first.
Then start ramping up the copper.

 

[Shibaken3]

any air pump?

 

[Sharkbait19]

What kind of fish?
I’d agree that the first thing that sticks out is that many fish in such a small tank, even for a short while. How did the fish act before dying?

 

[christwendt]

When I was losing fish in qt it was due to ammonia.

 

[Brewski4u1]

II have a 10 g qt and ammonia is always my enemy i have to do at least 50% water change every 4 days and i wont add more then 3 to the qt.

 

[Salomlar]

any air pump?

Yes, aerator

 

[Salomlar]

Hey Seth,

I treat all incoming fish w/ Copper Sulfate (2ppm), and General Cure which includes Metronidazole and Praziquantil. This will eliminate ich, velvet, uronema, external (and some internal) parasites, and a few other nasties. The truth is however, this treatment is very aggressive and so, it is imperative that you start your process with the most healthy specimens.

Here are a few things I do to try to minimize attrition (which works almost all of the time - I have successfully quarantined different species of anthias, angels, and wrasses):

1. Start the QT tank at 1ppm Chelated Copper Sulfate (or equivalent copper-based medication [I prefer CopperSafe]) when first adding fish.
   1. I verify copper levels with Hanna High Range Copper Test Kit.
   2. This will thwart (but not eradicate) progression of ich and other common illnesses while giving some time for the fish to acclimate to the copper.
   3. Unless I observe a disease on the fish that is progressing (this would be the exception, as you started with a very healthy fish, right?) I maintain the 1ppm copper level until I observe the fish feeding regularly. Most fish will experience a suppressed appetite at first.
2. Once the fish are eating regularly, I increase copper levels in the quarantine from 1ppm to 2ppm.
3. The day after increasing copper, I begin dosing General Cure at recommended dose once every three days, for 9 days total (dose on day 1, day 4, day 7)
   1. I keep an air stone in the tank and start running the first couple days of dosing the antibiotic.
4. For what it's worth; while sponge filters are a common recommendation for fish quarantine systems, I much prefer Penguin BioWheel filters. They oxygenate the water well, and I believe they propagate aerobic bacteria better than fully submerged media (they are in essence a wet-dry filter - excellent ammonia processing properties).

Couple questions for you:

1. What species of fish did you have in the QT?
2. Did you start with healthy specimens? Full belly, observed eating at store, no sores/lesions, clear eyes, swimming "normally"?
3. What copper product were you using, and what dose did you dose?
4. How did you verify the copper levels?
5. Did you check for ammonia? If so, which test kit? (I use Hanna for checking ammonia as well, however I have never had a fish die due to an ammonia spike in my QT).

Thank you for the comprehensive response.

Below are the responses to your questions.

But overall, do you think the subsequent health issues were more likely caused by the treatment regime than water parameters?

As the copper treatment elevates the nitrate/nitrate levels, how do I know if the nitrates/nitrates are actually too high?

I use SJ Wave ammonia test strips.

Below is a list of the fish I tried to QT. They were all quite small, and I made three towers of PVC tubing to create plenty of hiding spots.

The filter is a Seachem Tidal Filter 35, with sponge and bio media. Plus another sponge filter and an air stone.

The fish appeared quite healthy when they arrived. I ordered the fish, so didn't get to see them in the store.

I used copper safe straight away, as I got an ich outbreak from this same vendor previously. I use API copper test to confirm the copper level.

Any additional thoughts/theories/suggestions?

Thank you!

Seth

1	Ctenochaetus Strigata	Blue eye tang
1	Ctenochaetus Strigosus - yellow	Yellow Bristletooth
2	(Pseudo)Anthias squannipinnis - female	Lyretail Coralfish (Nice Color)
2	Pseudo Anthias Cooperi	Redbar Anthias
1	Caracanthus madascarensis	Velvet Fish
1	Centropyge acanthops	African Pygmy Angel
2	Chromis viridis	Blue-green Cromis
1	Paracheilliunius Mccoskeri	Mccosker"s flasher Wrasser
2	Gobiodon citrinus	Brown Goby
1	Labroides dimidiatus	Cleaner Wrasser
2	Nemateleotris manificia	Firefish
2	Nemanthias carberyi	Treadfin Goldie
1	Paracheilinus carpenteri	Carpenter´Wrasser
1	Psedocheilinus specie	Mystery Wrasser
1	Valenciennea strigata	Pennat Glider

 

[Shibaken3]

"I use API copper test to confirm the copper level."
Get a Hanna checker I did the same mistake using API.
I overdose with copper bc of API hard-to-tell test results.
I lost one fish bc of API but after using Hanna I haven't lost any so far.

 

[Sharkbait19]

What copper product have you been using? What dose are you treating at?

 

[Salomlar]

What copper product have you been using? What dose are you treating at?

Using copper safe, keeping the tank around 2.0 - 2.2.

 

[Sharkbait19]

My guess is still too many fish in too small a tank - an ammonia spike could quickly kill them all.

 

[LegalReefer]

Thank you for the comprehensive response.

Below are the responses to your questions.

But overall, do you think the subsequent health issues were more likely caused by the treatment regime than water parameters?

As the copper treatment elevates the nitrate/nitrate levels, how do I know if the nitrates/nitrates are actually too high?

I use SJ Wave ammonia test strips.

Below is a list of the fish I tried to QT. They were all quite small, and I made three towers of PVC tubing to create plenty of hiding spots.

The filter is a Seachem Tidal Filter 35, with sponge and bio media. Plus another sponge filter and an air stone.

The fish appeared quite healthy when they arrived. I ordered the fish, so didn't get to see them in the store.

I used copper safe straight away, as I got an ich outbreak from this same vendor previously. I use API copper test to confirm the copper level.

Any additional thoughts/theories/suggestions?

Thank you!

Seth

1	Ctenochaetus Strigata	Blue eye tang
1	Ctenochaetus Strigosus - yellow	Yellow Bristletooth
2	(Pseudo)Anthias squannipinnis - female	Lyretail Coralfish (Nice Color)
2	Pseudo Anthias Cooperi	Redbar Anthias
1	Caracanthus madascarensis	Velvet Fish
1	Centropyge acanthops	African Pygmy Angel
2	Chromis viridis	Blue-green Cromis
1	Paracheilliunius Mccoskeri	Mccosker"s flasher Wrasser
2	Gobiodon citrinus	Brown Goby
1	Labroides dimidiatus	Cleaner Wrasser
2	Nemateleotris manificia	Firefish
2	Nemanthias carberyi	Treadfin Goldie
1	Paracheilinus carpenteri	Carpenter´Wrasser
1	Psedocheilinus specie	Mystery Wrasser
1	Valenciennea strigata	Pennat Glider

Were you trying to quarantine all of those fish at the same time, in a ~15 gallon tank? If that is the case, and I sincerely hope it isn't, there really is no question as to why your fish are dying. They are overcrowded, stressed, and swimming in toxic soup of their own making. Just put them into your display tank unquarantined at this point, try and save any survivors and get them out of that tiny tank

 

[naterealbig]

Thank you for the comprehensive response.

You're welcome, and sorry for the super-late reply here.

But overall, do you think the subsequent health issues were more likely caused by the treatment regime than water parameters?

It could be both. If you are serious about quarantine (and it seems like you are), the investment into higher-grade testing equipment will help reduce the inherent risks of quarantining. The Hanna high-range ammonia checker and copper checker will help you understand the answer to this question. There is simply too much potential variability in results with the "drop and eyeball" method of the API kits.

As the copper treatment elevates the nitrate/nitrate levels, how do I know if the nitrates/nitrates are actually too high?

Ammonia and copper levels will be the most important parameters you are measuring here. Hanna (high-range Nitrate) would also be my go-to for Nitrate testing. I have this checker, but have never tested nitrates in my fish quarantine. It would be a good idea, however to have an idea of what the levels are - and being able to mark trends between the fishes appetites (as far as I'm concerned, the biggest obstacle with an aggressive prophylactic protocol) and nitrate levels.

I use SJ Wave ammonia test strips.

...See above...

Below is a list of the fish I tried to QT. They were all quite small, and I made three towers of PVC tubing to create plenty of hiding spots.

PVC is great for hiding spots, and conducive to the 'sterile-like' environment we are trying to create. It's best advantage is ability to clean/sterilize easily. I use a fake coral insert in mine, and (admittedly) increase risk for vanity's sake....

The filter is a Seachem Tidal Filter 35, with sponge and bio media. Plus another sponge filter and an air stone.

Should be fine assuming it has cycled, although I stand by the bio-wheel technology with respect to killing ammonia. I literally have never tested for ammonia in my QT's once the biological filtration is established, despite the relative high number of fish I QT at a time or the enormous amount that I feed the tank. I literally dump food in the tank (see above comment on fish appetite...)

The fish appeared quite healthy when they arrived. I ordered the fish, so didn't get to see them in the store.

This is the biggest step you can take to minimize attrition in your QT. Almost every fish I have lost during the QT process, I started with an underweight, sick, or wounded fish. If I purchase online, I generally stick with Divers Den livestock - they have always been healthy, and usually will eat immediately - even after a relatively quick acclimation to 2.0 - 2.3 ppm copper levels. Also keep in mind that copper (especially when compounded with other meds) will reduce the fish's appetite - if you start with a fat fish, even if they refuse to eat the duration of treatment (14 days for me) you will not have to worry about them dying from starvation.

I used copper safe straight away, as I got an ich outbreak from this same vendor previously. I use API copper test to confirm the copper level.

Makes sense, and this is my protocol as well, although I to try to introduce fish at 1ppm, and increase the copper level to 2.0 over a 24 hour period.

Any additional thoughts/theories/suggestions?

I do agree with other posters, that 20 fish is too many fish to try to quarantine at a go in such a small tank but I believe it was likely much more than this factor alone that led to the fish mortality you saw. If you are only using copper, keep in mind there are many diseases that it will not treat alone. FWIW, I combine copper, metronidozole, and praziquantil treatment, simultaneously - this will cure (external) uronema, velvet, ich, brook, and most flukes which I would attribute ~ 99% of the mortality to that we see in most fish and systems. Minimizing the number of fish you start with will keep aggression/stress to a minimum, minimize the amount of food you will need to feed, and minimize the chance that a pathogen (not treatable by copper alone) will impact other fish. If 1 fish is in QT, then only 1 animal is at risk - if there are 20 then you risk losing all 20.

Get yourself some Hanna checkers for Copper, Ammonia, Nitrate - this will help you accurately troubleshoot when things go awry.

 

[Salomlar]

You're welcome, and sorry for the super-late reply here.


It could be both. If you are serious about quarantine (and it seems like you are), the investment into higher-grade testing equipment will help reduce the inherent risks of quarantining. The Hanna high-range ammonia checker and copper checker will help you understand the answer to this question. There is simply too much potential variability in results with the "drop and eyeball" method of the API kits.


Ammonia and copper levels will be the most important parameters you are measuring here. Hanna (high-range Nitrate) would also be my go-to for Nitrate testing. I have this checker, but have never tested nitrates in my fish quarantine. It would be a good idea, however to have an idea of what the levels are - and being able to mark trends between the fishes appetites (as far as I'm concerned, the biggest obstacle with an aggressive prophylactic protocol) and nitrate levels.


...See above...


PVC is great for hiding spots, and conducive to the 'sterile-like' environment we are trying to create. It's best advantage is ability to clean/sterilize easily. I use a fake coral insert in mine, and (admittedly) increase risk for vanity's sake....


Should be fine assuming it has cycled, although I stand by the bio-wheel technology with respect to killing ammonia. I literally have never tested for ammonia in my QT's once the biological filtration is established, despite the relative high number of fish I QT at a time or the enormous amount that I feed the tank. I literally dump food in the tank (see above comment on fish appetite...)


This is the biggest step you can take to minimize attrition in your QT. Almost every fish I have lost during the QT process, I started with an underweight, sick, or wounded fish. If I purchase online, I generally stick with Divers Den livestock - they have always been healthy, and usually will eat immediately - even after a relatively quick acclimation to 2.0 - 2.3 ppm copper levels. Also keep in mind that copper (especially when compounded with other meds) will reduce the fish's appetite - if you start with a fat fish, even if they refuse to eat the duration of treatment (14 days for me) you will not have to worry about them dying from starvation.


Makes sense, and this is my protocol as well, although I to try to introduce fish at 1ppm, and increase the copper level to 2.0 over a 24 hour period.


I do agree with other posters, that 20 fish is too many fish to try to quarantine at a go in such a small tank but I believe it was likely much more than this factor alone that led to the fish mortality you saw. If you are only using copper, keep in mind there are many diseases that it will not treat alone. FWIW, I combine copper, metronidozole, and praziquantil treatment, simultaneously - this will cure (external) uronema, velvet, ich, brook, and most flukes which I would attribute ~ 99% of the mortality to that we see in most fish and systems. Minimizing the number of fish you start with will keep aggression/stress to a minimum, minimize the amount of food you will need to feed, and minimize the chance that a pathogen (not treatable by copper alone) will impact other fish. If 1 fish is in QT, then only 1 animal is at risk - if there are 20 then you risk losing all 20.

Get yourself some Hanna checkers for Copper, Ammonia, Nitrate - this will help you accurately troubleshoot when things go awry.

The labels on the meds always warn against treating fish with multiple medications at once, so I’ve tried to use medications one at a time.

when you treat with these three medications simultaneously, how do you manage the sequencing/dosage so as to not overwhelm the fish with all the meds?

thank you!