Fish becoming sick?

[timocean]

Dear all,

one of my P. squamipinnis breathes heavily and hides in the reef, while my A. pyroferus looks very meager despite eating. Here are some videos, background info (I lost my fish over the summer) and water parameters. Any help is highly appreciated!

Many thanks in advance,
timocean.


Videos:
======
P. squamipinnis: A. pyroferus:

Background:
==========
I unfortunately have lost all my fish this summer (see thread here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/wrasse-breathing-heavily.996725/). It started with heavy breathing, otherwise there were no visible symptoms. Despite trying various medications, 80W UV (running for 3 weeks), WC etc. I was not able to save the fish, which was really sad!

After that incident I went fallow for 47 days. I planned for longer, but my amphipod population exploded and since they ate my corals, I decided to put a Canary wrasse to keep them in check. Since the wrasse did very well over 2-3 weeks, I incrementally added more fish and have now two wrasses, one goby, one midas blenny, one purple tank, the chocolate tank and eight squamipinnis. The last once were added about a month ago.

Initially all fish were fine (and most seem still to be). The largest of the squammipinnis already was breathing heavily for a day 1-2 weeks ago, but after fiddling with my aeration (removed roller matt for more bubbles in sump and increased surface agitation at inflow), the fish was fine within half an hour or so. Until yesterday morning, when he was hiding again until lunch time, when he came out by himself. But today he is hiding again. The other fish seem fine, except that the A. pyroferus looks very slim to me (organs seem to be bulging on the sides and lateral line shows).
Until yesterday, my theory was that I might have oxygen issues in my tank. However, now my sump is very heavily aerated (with extra pump and many bubbles, all quite noisy), such that I think that might not the case anymore. Could it be that higher oxygen needs triggered by certain diseases (e.g. gill flukes), can to some degree be compensated by aeration?


Water Parameters:
===============
Just measured the following water parameters:
- Oxygen (Salifert): 6mg (I seem to be always getting this value independent of my aeration efforts)
- Ammonia (Salifert): 0.0mg
-Nitrite (Salifert): 0.01mg (or lower)
Besides, I monitor my tank 1-2 a month with ICP and have a KH director. Based on these all parameters seem stable and except a raised Aluminium of 62.5, everything seems to be balanced. Can of course provide the ICP from this week, if you think it helps.


Quarantine Remarks:
=================
I did not quarantine any of the fish. The dealer is quarantining before selling, and I know many people who buy there since many years (without quarantining themselves) and they never had problems. In general here in Germany, quarantining yourself is less common then it seems to be in the US.

 

[MnFish1]

Dear all,

one of my P. squamipinnis breathes heavily and hides in the reef, while my A. pyroferus looks very meager despite eating. Here are some videos, background info (I lost my fish over the summer) and water parameters. Any help is highly appreciated!

Many thanks in advance,
timocean.


Videos:
======
P. squamipinnis: A. pyroferus:

Background:
==========
I unfortunately have lost all my fish this summer (see thread here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/wrasse-breathing-heavily.996725/). It started with heavy breathing, otherwise there were no visible symptoms. Despite trying various medications, 80W UV (running for 3 weeks), WC etc. I was not able to save the fish, which was really sad!

After that incident I went fallow for 47 days. I planned for longer, but my amphipod population exploded and since they ate my corals, I decided to put a Canary wrasse to keep them in check. Since the wrasse did very well over 2-3 weeks, I incrementally added more fish and have now two wrasses, one goby, one midas blenny, one purple tank, the chocolate tank and eight squamipinnis. The last once were added about a month ago.

Initially all fish were fine (and most seem still to be). The largest of the squammipinnis already was breathing heavily for a day 1-2 weeks ago, but after fiddling with my aeration (removed roller matt for more bubbles in sump and increased surface agitation at inflow), the fish was fine within half an hour or so. Until yesterday morning, when he was hiding again until lunch time, when he came out by himself. But today he is hiding again. The other fish seem fine, except that the A. pyroferus looks very slim to me (organs seem to be bulging on the sides and lateral line shows).
Until yesterday, my theory was that I might have oxygen issues in my tank. However, now my sump is very heavily aerated (with extra pump and many bubbles, all quite noisy), such that I think that might not the case anymore. Could it be that higher oxygen needs triggered by certain diseases (e.g. gill flukes), can to some degree be compensated by aeration?


Water Parameters:
===============
Just measured the following water parameters:
- Oxygen (Salifert): 6mg (I seem to be always getting this value independent of my aeration efforts)
- Ammonia (Salifert): 0.0mg
-Nitrite (Salifert): 0.01mg (or lower)
Besides, I monitor my tank 1-2 a month with ICP and have a KH director. Based on these all parameters seem stable and except a raised Aluminium of 62.5, everything seems to be balanced. Can of course provide the ICP from this week, if you think it helps.


Quarantine Remarks:
=================
I did not quarantine any of the fish. The dealer is quarantining before selling, and I know many people who buy there since many years (without quarantining themselves) and they never had problems. In general here in Germany, quarantining yourself is less common then it seems to be in the US.

First, thanks for the video, and the detailed explanation. A couple questions - are the symptoms your fish have now similar to the others? Do you know the quarantine protocol of the dealer? I can't see any - but do you see anything looking like velvet/ich (spots) - or any other behavior, etc not shown on the video (head shaking, scratching, yawning) etc - which could suggest flukes?

As to your oxygen question, I don't think that would cause gill damage/flukes. Serious compliments on the excellent write-up

 

[vetteguy53081]

Can’t say for sure per video but any noted behaviors will help and fish, tangs mainly look a little thin

 

[timocean]

Many thanks for you reply! Happy to hear that the description was helpful. Here my replies to your questions.

A couple questions - are the symptoms your fish have now similar to the others?

Yes, the symptoms of the P. squamipinnis now are very similar to back than (heavy breathing and hiding).

Do you know the quarantine protocol of the dealer?

Not in detail. From hear-say it should be 4 or 6 weeks in quarantine tanks (don’t know about meds) before going into sale.

I can't see any - but do you see anything looking like velvet/ich (spots) - or any other behavior, etc not shown on the video (head shaking, scratching, yawning) etc - which could suggest flukes?

No, I cannot see anything looking like velvet or ich. The fish now and back then do not seem to have any visual signs. Regarding behavior, the A. pyroferus might have scratched itself once on the sand bad yesterday. Just saw it from the glimpse of my eyes, but could not certainly verify or see it again. My goby was today swimming a bit heretically as if it was shocked or something. Apart from that, I could not observe strange behavior.

As to your oxygen question, I don't think that would cause gill damage/flukes.

My question was rather meant as follows. In case I have flukes, the fish might require more oxygen. Increasing aeration might have helped up to some level, but with the disease progressing, the further increased requirement might not be compensatable through aeration anymore. Not sure if that could make sense?!

 

[timocean]

Can’t say for sure per video but any noted behaviors will help and fish, tangs mainly look a little thin

Thanks for the reply. Regarding behavior, pls see my post above. Yes, the tank looks slim, while the purple tank looks perfectly fine to me. I would also say that I rather feed quite a bit: one cube frozen mysis in the morning, some pellets for lunch, and one cube frozen mysis in the evening. The tangs get nori three times per week. The A. pyroferus does not seem to gain any weight despite eating.

 

[MnFish1]

Many thanks for you reply! Happy to hear that the description was helpful. Here my replies to your questions.


Yes, the symptoms of the P. squamipinnis now are very similar to back than (heavy breathing and hiding).


Not in detail. From hear-say it should be 4 or 6 weeks in quarantine tanks (don’t know about meds) before going into sale.


No, I cannot see anything looking like velvet or ich. The fish now and back then do not seem to have any visual signs. Regarding behavior, the A. pyroferus might have scratched itself once on the sand bad yesterday. Just saw it from the glimpse of my eyes, but could not certainly verify or see it again. My goby was today swimming a bit heretically as if it was shocked or something. Apart from that, I could not observe strange behavior.


My question was rather meant as follows. In case I have flukes, the fish might require more oxygen. Increasing aeration might have helped up to some level, but with the disease progressing, the further increased requirement might not be compensatable through aeration anymore. Not sure if that could make sense?!

OH - correct. Is it possible for you to get praziquantel there - with almost any treatment - it's best to increase aeration.

 

[timocean]

OH - correct. Is it possible for you to get praziquantel there - with almost any treatment - it's best to increase aeration.

Yes. Based on the description, would you suggest that I apply praziquantel?

 

[MnFish1]

Yes. Based on the description, would you suggest that I apply praziquantel?

Are you planning to put the fish in a separate tank- or the display?

 

[MnFish1]

My question relates to the fact that the Tang doesn't look great but doesn't have all of the symptoms?

 

[timocean]

My question relates to the fact that the Tang doesn't look great but doesn't have all of the symptoms?

Easiest would be to do in DT if possible. But could also start up another tank and catch out fish to treat. Should I then also catch out the tang? But that would leave potential flukes on other fish right?!

The bad thing is that we will be away for xmas Dec. 23-26. So observation/intervention during that time is difficult.
BTW, tried to look up proper prazi treatment guide here (dosage, WC etc.), but could not find. Do you have a link?

 

[MnFish1]

Easiest would be to do in DT if possible. But could also start up another tank and catch out fish to treat. Should I then also catch out the tang? But that would leave potential flukes on other fish right?!

The bad thing is that we will be away for xmas Dec. 23-26. So observation/intervention during that time is difficult.
BTW, tried to look up proper prazi treatment guide here (dosage, WC etc.), but could not find. Do you have a link?

Right - and all bad things happen on vacation - to my experience lol. I would treat in the display - and I would have a house-sitter or person evaluating the tank daily or more often - to take out any dead fish.

 

[timocean]

Right - and all bad things happen on vacation - to my experience lol. I would treat in the display - and I would have a house-sitter or person evaluating the tank daily or more often - to take out any dead fish.

Yes, will ask my neighbor about this.
Found the treatment guide by humblefish: https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/praziquantel.25/
Is that recommended, or is there anotherone on r2r?

 

[timocean]

Yes, will ask my neighbor about this.
Found the treatment guide by humblefish: https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/praziquantel.25/
Is that recommended, or is there anotherone on r2r?

I could get Oasis Praziquantel, which is a powder and the bottle looks like on the attached photo, and does not list its ingredients.

The description says to use 5g/100L, so I guess it also contains other ingredients. Unfortunately, it also says to repeat after 6 days (see detailed directions below), which does not seem to be inline with most recommendations.

Planned Praziquantel Treatment:
===========================
So I plan to modify the procedure while I would stay with the specified Oasis dosage, but modify the treatment according to the prazi calendar (https://benezeapp.cawthron.org.nz/):
Day 1 - First treatment: Dose 5g/100L (rub powder through sieve into tank)
Day 1-3 - No feeding
Day 8 - 30% water change
Day 9 - Second treatment: Dose 5g/100L (rub powder through sieve into tank)

@Jay Hemdal : Since I came across many prazi posts from you, it would be great to hear what you think about the procedure? Especially regarding the not feeding and skipping a water change on day 4 (as I will be travelling). Many thanks!


Actual Oasis Praziquantel Directions:
==============================
Day 1
1a- Replace 1/3 of tank water.
1b- Add 5g of powder to every 100L of water.
1c- Do not feed for 3 days.

Day 4
Repeat step 1a only.
Feed fish for 1 day.

Day 5
Rest day.

Day 6
Start of new treatment cycle.
Repeat from step 1a.

Repeat treatment cycle until recovery

Increase dosage for serious illness

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks for the reply. Regarding behavior, pls see my post above. Yes, the tank looks slim, while the purple tank looks perfectly fine to me. I would also say that I rather feed quite a bit: one cube frozen mysis in the morning, some pellets for lunch, and one cube frozen mysis in the evening. The tangs get nori three times per week. The A. pyroferus does not seem to gain any weight despite eating.

Nori is not a complete diet and fish need herbivore foods such as LRS and RODS and even Hikari which should be available in Germany. Fatty foods with aminos are key for these fish.
Prazi treats worms and flukes- Is there a reason you are dosing it? I dont see signs or behaviors associated in video

 

[timocean]

Nori is not a complete diet and fish need herbivore foods such as LRS and RODS and even Hikari which should be available in Germany. Fatty foods with aminos are key for these fish.
Prazi treats worms and flukes- Is there a reason you are dosing it? I dont see signs or behaviors associated in video

Thanks for the tips regarding diet. I actually treat the mysis with Fauna Marin Food Energizer, which contains aminos and fat. But will see to get your other suggestions.

Dosing prazi was actually a suggestion here in this thread. Due to the heavy breathing and hiding of the P. squamipinni (see video above). Do you think I should rather do something else or further observe? As I will be traveling over Xmas, I also feel a bit iffy about medicating the tank.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks for the tips regarding diet. I actually treat the mysis with Fauna Marin Food Energizer, which contains aminos and fat. But will see to get your other suggestions.

Dosing prazi was actually a suggestion here in this thread. Due to the heavy breathing and hiding of the P. squamipinni (see video above). Do you think I should rather do something else or further observe? As I will be traveling over Xmas, I also feel a bit iffy about medicating the tank.

Which can also be velvet which have similar symptoms and behaviors.
Is fish darting or scratching against objects? Also shaking its head back and forth or displaying a coughing effect?

 

[timocean]

Which can also be velvet which have similar symptoms and behaviors.
Is fish darting or scratching against objects? Also shaking its head back and forth or displaying a coughing effect?

No, the fish does not show any of these behaviors. Only hiding and breathing. It happened a few times over the past days, but the fish also came out again. And was in fact eating this morning. The skin looks perfectly fine, and the fish also looks well fed.

 

[vetteguy53081]

No, the fish does not show any of these behaviors. Only hiding and breathing. It happened a few times over the past days, but the fish also came out again. And was in fact eating this morning. The skin looks perfectly fine, and the fish also looks well fed.

That does not conclude flukes in which I am not convinced. I do not recommend treatments without clear i.d.
can be velvet, water quality.
With velvet, you will see fish scratch body against hard objects, lethargic behavior, Loss of appetite and weight loss, Rapid, labored breathing, Fins clamped against the body, and typically stay at the surface of the water, or remain in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium.

 

[timocean]

That does not conclude flukes in which I am not convinced. I do not recommend treatments without clear i.d.

Ok, then I will not apply the prazi for now. If I would observe the behavior you describe above (darting, head shaking, coughing) I will reconsider.

can be velvet, water quality.

Regarding water quality, according to ICP all values are in the suggested ranges. Except Aluminium at 62,5. Any specifics I could/should look for?

With velvet, you will see fish scratch body against hard objects, lethargic behavior, Loss of appetite and weight loss, Rapid, labored breathing, Fins clamped against the body, and typically stay at the surface of the water, or remain in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium.

Regarding these it is a mix.
A. pyroferus: has weight loss and might have scratched once, but does not tick the other boxes.
P. squamipinnis: shows lethargic behavior, rapid, labored breathing, but does not check the other boxes

Shouldn’t velvet also show somehow on the skin?
Do you have a suggestion, how I should proceed (wait, treat, …)? Loosing my fish in summer was a horrible experience, I really want to avoid. Thanks!

 

[MnFish1]

To the OP - if you read back - all of these questions were covered. If you want to pick a treatment my recommendation would be Prazipro. However - there is nothing to suggest that this is 'correct' - except that the fish are not dead (i.e. likely not velvet) - but merely hiding abnormally and breathing fast - and to my recollection, they had odd behavior - and you had several deaths a while back. I hate to see you receiving opposite recommendations. These things are always difficult when there is no clear diagnosis. I believe your question was what is the best option since you are leaving for vacation - my opinion is prazipro which has minimal risks - and you're not going to be around to treat with copper. Agree perhaps @Jay Hemdal will weigh in!!