First time w/th 2-part help

[BHAMR6]

O.k I'm starting to dose 2-part today , I did a water change last night which i do every 3wks or so. I tested my water this morning and it showed my results like this...

Cal-460 (so i dont want to raise it just need to maintain )
Alk-7 dkh ( I would like to raise to 9 )

Bulk reef supply calculator said i need to put 3.1oz or 18.5 tsp of alk to get to 9.. So how much solution would you add at a time to get up to 9 ???? And while i'm adding my alk to get it up can i go ahead and be dosing to maintain my cal ????

My second question is when i get it all where i want what do you think about starting w/th a maint.. dose of .4 to .6 ml a gallon.. i have a 65g w/th 25 pcs of colony sps pcs...

 

[beaslbob]

The first thing you are supposed to do with the diy 2 part is a one time dosing to get magnesium, calcium, and alk the paramters in line.

So I would recommend you check magnesium and get that at 1350 ppm or so.

then raise which ever one of the calcium or alk is low. In your case if alk is still a little low the add baking soda. When you do that calcium will come down so you may get acceptable params with no additional dosing.

then you measure alk. When it drops down you dose equal amounts of calcium and alk. (based upon the diy 2 part forumlas.) After a gallon of calcium and alk mixtures have been used up you dos 300ml of the magnesium.

I get calcium chloride from redimix companies. Baking soda and epsom salts from the grocery store. Magnesium chloride (and calcium chlorde) from a local industrial chemical supplier.

I do use a little kalk in my top off which is mrs. wages pickling lime.

my .02

 

[RBursek]

I disagree with BleaslBob, Alk and Ca can be used at different rates so dosing equal amounts is not accurate, for 1 drop in Alk in DKH Ca will drop 7ppm. Depending on which Alk recipe you use, 1 or 2 they have different potencies. The recipe that uses baked baking soda (soda ash) is twice as potent as the recipe for using baking soda. Here is some good reading.
An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
Do-It-Yourself Magnesium Supplements for the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

 

[stedfast82]

get your mag up first i would say shoot for 1400 1450 get it there first then add alk if your alk is at say 7 you want it at 9 then if say bulk reef said say 300 ml get your cup at 300 ml just add it a little at a time till it is all gone if my alk swing's a little low i will add alk over a couple of hour's. cal is the same way. just take it slow. but if your mag is low then you will have a hard time getting your cal and alk to stay stable test every other day to see how much .it swing's make a chart that way you can get a day by day dose for your reef i have a 110 gal full mixed reef i will dose 100 ml a day of cal at night and alk in the day before i go to work keep a eye on how much top off water you add if to have to top off say 3 gal's a day then you might have to add more alk some week's more than other's just keep a good eye on thing's you will do fine.

 

[stedfast82]

just to add if you dont have any magnesium you can use epsom salt to raise it to the level's you want I would not do this all the time just till you get some mag from BRS

 

[RBursek]

Using straight Espom Salts can add too much Sulfate to your tank over time depending on water changes, I believe that is discussed in the site I posted earlier, it should be a mix of Mg Chl and Mg Sulfite )Espom Salts) I think it is 5cups Mg Chl and 3cups Mg Slfite to 1 gallon of RO/DI water. Adding top off water has nothing to do with your chemical levels since they do not evaperate, but in a small system that you let the water level evap too low and then test, I guess your chem levels would look more concentrated. I like this calculator better.
Reef Chemistry Calculator

 

[Fragged_it]

Cal-460 (so i dont want to raise it just need to maintain )
Alk-7 dkh ( I would like to raise to 9 )

Bulk reef supply calculator said i need to put 3.1oz or 18.5 tsp of alk to get to 9.. So how much solution would you add at a time to get up to 9 ???? And while i'm adding my alk to get it up can i go ahead and be dosing to maintain my cal ????

I would dose baking soda (not soda ash) to bring up the alkalinity. Maintaining the calcium with dry anhydrous calcium chloride using either BRS' calculator or the other suggested above. Once your parameters meet your desire, then start the 2-part.

You don't want to raise your alkalinity more than 1.4 dkh in a 24hr period.

I prefer to use a salt that meets my tanks needs and dose dry chemistry rather than 2 part. For my tank, Oceanic is best.

Good luck!

 

[RBursek]

Yes you do not need to dose the liquid 2 part, you can add the dry chemicals mixed with a cup of tank water and add to a high flow area, in liquid form it is suitable for a dosing pump on a time but just to do dosing as needed you can mix as I mentioned. It does not work well though with the MG mix. I wil add a table spoon of baking soda or baked baking soda as needed but I have a 150gal system. Baking soda will raise Ph slightly, along with Alk, where baked baking soda will raise Ph as well as Alk as Randy's articles that I posted earlier explains. Here is a good read on basic water chemistry.
Reef Aquarium Water Parameters
Reef Aquarium Water Parameters by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com


How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
Chemistry and the Aquarium

Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
http://web.archive.org/web/200211270...v2002/chem.htm

 

[beaslbob]

I disagree with BleaslBob, Alk and Ca can be used at different rates so dosing equal amounts is not accurate, for 1 drop in Alk in DKH Ca will drop 7ppm. Depending on which Alk recipe you use, 1 or 2 they have different potencies. The recipe that uses baked baking soda (soda ash) is twice as potent as the recipe for using baking soda. Here is some good reading.
An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
Do-It-Yourself Magnesium Supplements for the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Just to be clear here, the equal parts are the calcium and alk mixtures from diy articles and not equal amounts of the dry additives. The idea is that after the initial "balancing" of parameters, calcium and carbonate are used in some balanced fashion. So you do the easy alk test and when that drops down you add equal amounts of the calcium and alk from the mixtures you made up. After a gallon of those mixtures are used up you dose 300ml of the magnesium mixture. In that way you are dosing based upon tank consumption.


my .02

 

[BHAMR6]

Ok here is where i stand now according to the reef calculator i needed to put 18.5 tsp of my alk 2 part to bring it from 7 to 9 dkh, So over the last couple of days i have added that amount to the tank . I tested tonight a couple of hrs after adding the last amount it said my alk was 8 dkh.. Still not the 9 i was looking for but i did go up some ..

Now my new problem is that i have tested the Cal 3 times today and have got a different reading every time Yesterday it was 460 today it went from 420 to 460 and now it says 480.. So now i'm nervous that the test kit is bad and if thats the case the alk one could be to ..

I had to send a water sample to a friend because i dont have a mag test kit but he said it tested above 1400, So if thats right i dont understand why my alk is not where it said it should be. Also to i dont know what to do about the cal i was expecting it to drop when i started adding the alk part but instead it has went up ..

Thanks ahead of time for the help on this !!!

 

[RBursek]

BHAMR6,
Adding Alk will not affect Ca, it will not raise or lower it. I hope you read those articles I posted for you. Test kits are not that accurate and it also depends on the testers ability to be consistent with the test. If your Mg is 1400ish that is good, and will help keep your Ca level stable, since low Mg keeps Ca hard to get and stay up no matter how much you add. You Ca level is good no matter which test you believe, I like API test kits for Ca and Alk they are cheap, easy to use and accurate. Here is an other calculator for you to determine your actual gallonage of your tank. That could be some of your problem if you have any rock how do you know how much water your tank actually holds to use the chemical calculator. So you may have more water then you are plugging into the chemical calculator and that is why you are getting less Alk for what you are adding.
Aquarium System Volume Calculator

 

[RBursek]

bealsbob,
I am not trying to be argumentative, but this calculator tells you what to add to get your ALk, Ca, and Mg to what levels using both liquid and dry chemicals, and what the other levels should be to be in ionic balance, when you get get the one you are raising to its point. I am just trying to get him to learn and understand the relationship of these 3 major chemicals in our systems, I always respect your knowledge and opinions.
Reef Chemistry Calculator

 

[beaslbob]

bealsbob,
I am not trying to be argumentative, but this calculator tells you what to add to get your ALk, Ca, and Mg to what levels using both liquid and dry chemicals, and what the other levels should be to be in ionic balance, when you get get the one you are raising to its point. I am just trying to get him to learn and understand the relationship of these 3 major chemicals in our systems, I always respect your knowledge and opinions.
Reef Chemistry Calculator

Understand.

And you are correct the calculator does have the dry amounts to add as well.

My point is that after that initial adjustment cal, alk, and mag are used up at some rates. So for maintenance the diy 2 part mixes up solutions where you add equal amounts of the cal, and alk, when you notice alk has droped down. and after some calcium/alk dosing you add magnesium.

From the diy 2 part (improved article)

Then, once things seem roughly correct, select a starting daily dose for routine dosing. Here are some suggested starting doses, but the exact values do not matter much. The suggested doses apply to both recipes.

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Table 1. Suggested starting daily doses of this supplement in different aquaria.[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Tank Description:________[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Suggested Starting Doses:[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Recipe #1 _____ [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Recipe #2[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Fish-only with live rock_______ [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]0.1 mL/gallon_____[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]0.2 mL/gallon[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]New tank, few corals__________ [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]0.2 mL/gallon_____[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]0.4 mL/gallon[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Low demand________________ [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]0.3 mL/gallon_____[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]0.6 mL/gallon[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Mixed tank__________________[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]0.5 mL/gallon_____[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]1 mL/gallon[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Heavy demand (SPS corals) _____[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]1 mL/gallon_______[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]2 mL/gallon[/SIZE][/FONT]
After a few days of dosing, note whether alkalinity is low, high or on target. Only bother to test alkalinity, not calcium, during this period, because it is much more sensitive than calcium to over- or underdosing. Adjust the dose up or down as necessary to increase or decrease the alkalinity.
Once you have determined the proper dose, continue it until there is a substantial reason to adjust it (such as falling alkalinity as the corals increase in size). When adjusting the dose, raise or lower both of the recipe's parts together.
Resist the temptation to keep jiggering calcium and alkalinity independently. They will need occasional corrections, but that should not be the normal course of dosing unless there are substantial outside influences, such as water changes with a salt mix that does not match the tank's parameters or an error in making the mixes.
Check alkalinity fairly frequently to make sure the dosing continues at a suitable rate. Check it maybe once a week to once a month (or less as you get more experienced with the system and the tank). Check calcium once a month to once every few months to make sure it continues on track.
Remember to add an appropriate amount of Part 3 each time you finish adding a gallon of Parts 1 and 2

 

[RBursek]

Beaslbob,
from what i have read and as I understand it, you get your Alk, Ca and Mg numbers in line, then you do nothing for a few days, then test again and see what you numbers drop, and divide each of those numbers by how many days it was since you tested where you wanted your numbers to be. Then that is how much of what ever you are using to supliment those 3 chemicals per day, obviously Mg does not drop that fast but you can extend that number by a week or 2 and then divide it and that is how much you may want to add semi weekly or weekly of Mg or even bi-weekly, all depending on tank needs and usage. what you dose with, obviously liquids are less concentrated so that could be a daily basis for Ca and Alk and how annal you are on chasing the numbers, and holding to a desired number or range of that chemical balance of sea water.
As far as adding Mg at the end of the Alk and Ca containers I am not an advocate of that, it does not keep Mg stable, I advocate as you use the Alk,Ca, as you use 1/4 of those then add 1/4 of the Mg. It will keep Mg numbers more stable instead of major changes of Mg rangenumbers of its levels in sea water.

 

[beaslbob]

Beaslbob,
from what i have read and as I understand it, you get your Alk, Ca and Mg numbers in line, then you do nothing for a few days, then test again and see what you numbers drop, and divide each of those numbers by how many days it was since you tested where you wanted your numbers to be. Then that is how much of what ever you are using to supliment those 3 chemicals per day, obviously Mg does not drop that fast but you can extend that number by a week or 2 and then divide it and that is how much you may want to add semi weekly or weekly of Mg or even bi-weekly, all depending on tank needs and usage. what you dose with, obviously liquids are less concentrated so that could be a daily basis for Ca and Alk and how annal you are on chasing the numbers, and holding to a desired number or range of that chemical balance of sea water.
As far as adding Mg at the end of the Alk and Ca containers I am not an advocate of that, it does not keep Mg stable, I advocate as you use the Alk,Ca, as you use 1/4 of those then add 1/4 of the Mg. It will keep Mg numbers more stable instead of major changes of Mg rangenumbers of its levels in sea water.

kinda. :wink:

After the one time adjustment (say to 400ppm calcium, 9 dkh, 1350ppm magnesium) I mix up the 1 gallon solutions of calcium clhoride, baking soda, and magnesium chloride/magnesium sulfate per forumla 2. Check but it is like 297 grams calcium chloride, 250grams sodium bicarbonate, 5 cups magnesium chloride, 3 cups magnesium sulfate. but please check those actual values my memory is not all that good and I do have to check when mixing. I put the mixing instructions of the gallon jars and label each.

Then I measure alk. So all I do is take a sample and add 9 drops. If it is still blue do nothing. If it has changed color to green then I dose. The next day if it has changed color I dose a little more. If it remains blue I don't dose. After awhile I get a feel for what that particular tank needs and wind up with dosing levels where I dose 2-3 times per week.

Then after the gallon jars of calcium and alk are used up I add 300ml of the magnesium suppliment (again this is formula 2--formula one may be different). And mix up new calcium and alk mixtures.

Every month or two I do check calcium/alk and magnesium. I have found this keeps magnesium in the 1300-1500ppm range and calcium 350-400ppm.

Sure it would be better to drip or otherwise add smaller amounts more often but this is so simple and inexpensive I just don't worry.

I did also add kalk in top off and my 55g has crushed oyster shells as filter media which did raise my calcium levels (but depressed alk levels).

But the idea here is the alk measurements are extremely easy to do and allows you to dose according to tank requirements.


my .02

 

[beaslbob]

Oh yea

I tried to get really smart one time and put the 300ml of the magnesium mixture in the calcium jar. And calcium was dropping and it seemed to be forever before the alk droped down.

At the end of the gallons I found a big big ball of white precipitate in the calcium jar. Seems calcium chloride amd magnesium sulfate pricipitate calcium sulfate. :bigsmile:

Perhaps I should have used see through gallon jars instead of the opaque gallon orange juice jars also.

my .02

ps I hear you can add magnesium chloride to the calcium chloride though. But don't want to try after that. :squigglemouth: