Fact or Opinion, or Both?

[Soren]

I just want facts or opinions based on what people have actually experienced/done separated from those that people read about. Not all facts are the same. Not all opinons are the same.

An opinion(based on experience) from a reefer with a tank that I admire is worth more to me than a fact from some science article that somebody read about.

Anything from actual reefers > anything from internet reefers. The only thing less helpful than internet reefers are what is written, posted or video'd from a manufacturer or supplier, but most think of these as facts... and perhaps the worst kind of facts both dangerous and beyond reproach.

Other than physical facts like gravity, ionic bonds, etc. we have very few in this hobby. Experience or opinions from the truly successful are where most will find the meat of their guidance. Finding those to follow can be hard since it a lot like the intersection of work, time and paying attention.

Sure, most people don't get it and never will. You do these things so that even if you only help a small few, they truly were helped. It is like real leadership in the world, which too few do... it is hard, it can hurt and can cause you pain and plenty of self reflection. I gotta admit... although I see the benefit of doing the hard work of actually helping with this hobby, I am pretty sure that this board is not the right place to do it anymore, if it ever was.

I think the best is the sharing of personal experience that can be verified by those who have more experience than myself.
The danger of trusting too much in shared personal experience is that there may be undisclosed or misunderstood differences between the tank of the person sharing the experience and the tank of the person seeking advice. If the nuances can be addressed and variables limited, this can bring good results.
The danger of trusting too much in a linked study or "appeal to authority" in general is that the details of the study may differ from your particular case enough to matter, or the study may not be fully understood or prove the same conclusion that is being drawn by the one offering the advice.

This is why I think that a link between personal experience and studies/research done by those with more experience than me, paired with pursuit for a deeper understanding and a carefulness in how/when/why we offer advice brings the best results.

 

[Dom]

I think FACT vs OPINION is often ego driven.

I've seen it here; people will argue their position on an opinion as if it were fact because their ego will not allow them to be wrong.

 

[Thales]

Just to be clear, I don't mean that it is a conscious preference towards ignorance, but rather more a natural resource-management to not spend resources on things that seem insignificant.
I agree that lack of training in school is also a contributing factor.
The primary factor of ignorance, in my opinion, is that the ignorant person (at least, ignorant in regard to the topic at hand) has chosen to focus attention on or prioritize other factors in life. For example, most people do not consider the in-depth scientific study of the reef tank the main priority and would rather just have a beautiful tank according to what they want as they focus on more important issues (at least by their own judgements).

Gotcha. I differ slightly because I think most people haven't been taught that 'ignorance' is something that can be addressed with training, so they don't even know they can do something about it. We may be saying the same thing in different ways.
I do think that most people don't care to dive deep, and just want easy recipies they can follow in reefing - sadly, I don't think such things exist.

 

[Potatohead]

I think FACT vs OPINION is often ego driven.

I've seen it here; people will argue their position on an opinion as if it were fact because their ego will not allow them to be wrong.

Not just here.

If you have more knowledge you can try to correct someone with their beliefs or the way they've been doing something, but that means they are/have been doing it wrong, so people don't like it. Some people react as if you just called their wife ugly or something.

 

[Soren]

Gotcha. I differ slightly because I think most people haven't been taught that 'ignorance' is something that can be addressed with training, so they don't even know they can do something about it. We may be saying the same thing in different ways.
I do think that most people don't care to dive deep, and just want easy recipies they can follow in reefing - sadly, I don't think such things exist.

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing in different ways.
We all start in ignorance until we pay attention and should purse to be educated to overcome the ignorance in our areas of preference.
"Ignorance" has the same etymological root as "ignore", which would mean not paying attention to something. We get to choose whether we are ignorant by default and strive to not be ignorant by paying attention or whether we are willfully ignorant by choosing to just dismiss things rather than consider and address them.

Our attitudes in regard to ignorance often play a significant role in how we differentiate and utilize fact versus opinion.

P.S. I wish there was a way for all to realize that they can overcome ignorance through training, as you mentioned.

 

[Dburr1014]

When it comes to my reef tank, the more I know, the more I don't know.

Sometimes I feel I'm going down a rabbit hole.

 

[MnFish1]

The following discussion may seem esoteric, but I think it may be useful for many reefers. This first post is not intended to be a complete discussion, but a starting point for more discussion.

Since this is a science forum in a hobby filled with lots of facts and lots of opinions, I thought I'd initiate a discussion on what are facts, what are opinions, and how can one tell them apart, and why it matters.

First off, facts can be right, or wrong, or even shades of grey in between, or be unknown to any given person (maybe to all persons). So something being a fact does not make it correct.

For example, these are all facts:

1. I do not presently have a reef tank (a correct fact).
2. I never had a reef tank (an incorrect fact)
3. I want to get a reef tank (a fact whose accuracy is known only to me, not anyone else unless I have told them and not changed my mind since I told them)
4. I may get a reef tank in the future (a correct fact unless there is no possible scenario where I will get a reef tank, regardless of what I presently believe)
6. There are three reef tanks within 300 yards of where I was sitting when I wrote this (a fact that no one knows the accuracy of)
7. There is an alien on a planet 10,275 light years away from earth who keeps a reef tank of earth organisms (a fact of unknown accuracy, even if many believe they know the answer)

These are all opinions:

1. Reef tanks are fun to have.
2. Reef tanks are expensive to have.
3. Carpet anemones are hard to keep.
4. Green chromis do not do well in reef tanks.
5. Reef tanks are loud.
6. Salt mix A is the best for a reef tank.

How can one easily tell opinion from fact? It can be hard.

Why does it matter?

One reason is that facts are not generally decided by people. Facts just are. We may debate the accuracy of facts (for example, fact 7 above), but they are not decided by poll. Even if every person thinks a fact is right, that does not prevent it from being wrong. Fact 7 is either right, or wrong, no matter what anyone on earth believes about it.

Opinions, on the other hand, are inherently created by people thinking something, and are very susceptible to change. Many opinions could be facts if there was a metric involved, but without it, are dependent on the reader to use their own metrics, making it not a fact. For example:

"Reef tanks are loud"

has a value judgement (opinion) buried in it that makes it an opinion, while a related sentence

"The majority of reef tanks exceed 73 dB when measured 1 meter from the aquarium"

would be a fact (whether it is accurate or inaccurate)..

Looking at the opinions 1-6 above, it is clear that they have value judgements in them. That is often a hallmark of an opinion. If a different person has a different view of that value judgement, they will come to a different conclusion about whether it is accurate or not.

Unfortunately, many people ask questions without knowing whether they are asking for opinions or facts, and many people answer questions without regard to whether their answer is a fact or an opinion.

Q: How do I raise alkalinity?
A: Add baking soda.

That question is unclear whether the author is asking for the best way (an opinion), for all ways (facts) or something else. The answer too is unclear whether it is an opinion that the author thinks is best, a fact that the author believes is the only way, or something else.

Thus, my suggestion is for folks posing question to make it as clear as possible if they are looking for facts or opinions, and for folks answering questions to make it clear which the answer is.

Q: How should I raise alkalinity? (asking for opinions)
Q: How can I raise alkalinity? (asking for facts)

A: Adding baking soda is the best/easiest/cheapest way (opinion)
A: Adding baking soda is the only way (fact, but inaccurate)
A: Adding baking soda is one of many possible ways (accurate fact)

Thanks for reading and Happy reefing!

This is awesome. One issue with this thinking is that one person's opinion is another persons fact. With the alkalinity question - to me it seems like lack of specificity is the problem as compared to the use of can or should. i.e.

Q: what are the ways to raise alkalinity?
Q: What is the best way to raise alkalinity.

That said - since it's an open forum - there could be multiple 'factual' responses' to the supposedly fact asking question. Since multiple people could have 'an opinion' - that they view as fact. Lets take this example:

How can I quarantine?
Asking for facts - but you will get multiple opinions - some are factual - and probably all are factual to the people posting answers.

 

[MnFish1]

when people gauge their cycle by api, is it fact or opinion

Both

 

[MnFish1]

I know that question sounds jesting but it's legit/the amount of calculated recourse off those tests is $$ amazing, the impact to reefer's confidence, truly its an impactful situation honestly. testers cannot discern fact from fiction with today's kits and it changes the course of their reefing permanently we see in post patterns in my opinion

Not in my factual database. My facts- from testing multiple tanks with API tests (lets take for ammonia) - is they work just as well as others if the directions are followed. The problem - like with a lot of things - people don't follow the directions. I did perhaps 200 API ammonia tests - sometimes multiples a day. Only had 1 false positive (using3 different test kits). So - to me - it's a fact that API tests used correctly (and I mean to the letter) - are as good as the rest. I have no need to switch - I've tried hanna - and Redsea. So - if you want to talk about $$ - perhaps consider the fact that unless the pH of a tank is extremely high - an ammonia of 0.25 on an API test is a non-issue. However this is where @Randy Holmes-Farley 's question becomes interesting - Is that an opinion - or a fact (i.e. follow the instructions) or both - IMHO it's both. the seneye IN MY OPINION - for ammonia is a waste of money.