Fact or Opinion, or Both?

Randy Holmes-Farley

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The following discussion may seem esoteric, but I think it may be useful for many reefers. This first post is not intended to be a complete discussion, but a starting point for more discussion.

Since this is a science forum in a hobby filled with lots of facts and lots of opinions, I thought I'd initiate a discussion on what are facts, what are opinions, and how can one tell them apart, and why it matters.

First off, facts can be right, or wrong, or even shades of grey in between, or be unknown to any given person (maybe to all persons). So something being a fact does not make it correct.

For example, these are all facts:

1. I do not presently have a reef tank (a correct fact).
2. I never had a reef tank (an incorrect fact)
3. I want to get a reef tank (a fact whose accuracy is known only to me, not anyone else unless I have told them and not changed my mind since I told them)
4. I may get a reef tank in the future (a correct fact unless there is no possible scenario where I will get a reef tank, regardless of what I presently believe)
6. There are three reef tanks within 300 yards of where I was sitting when I wrote this (a fact that no one knows the accuracy of)
7. There is an alien on a planet 10,275 light years away from earth who keeps a reef tank of earth organisms (a fact of unknown accuracy, even if many believe they know the answer)

These are all opinions:

1. Reef tanks are fun to have.
2. Reef tanks are expensive to have.
3. Carpet anemones are hard to keep.
4. Green chromis do not do well in reef tanks.
5. Reef tanks are loud.
6. Salt mix A is the best for a reef tank.

How can one easily tell opinion from fact? It can be hard.

Why does it matter?

One reason is that facts are not generally decided by people. Facts just are. We may debate the accuracy of facts (for example, fact 7 above), but they are not decided by poll. Even if every person thinks a fact is right, that does not prevent it from being wrong. Fact 7 is either right, or wrong, no matter what anyone on earth believes about it.

Opinions, on the other hand, are inherently created by people thinking something, and are very susceptible to change. Many opinions could be facts if there was a metric involved, but without it, are dependent on the reader to use their own metrics, making it not a fact. For example:

"Reef tanks are loud"

has a value judgement (opinion) buried in it that makes it an opinion, while a related sentence

"The majority of reef tanks exceed 73 dB when measured 1 meter from the aquarium"

would be a fact (whether it is accurate or inaccurate)..

Looking at the opinions 1-6 above, it is clear that they have value judgements in them. That is often a hallmark of an opinion. If a different person has a different view of that value judgement, they will come to a different conclusion about whether it is accurate or not.

Unfortunately, many people ask questions without knowing whether they are asking for opinions or facts, and many people answer questions without regard to whether their answer is a fact or an opinion.

Q: How do I raise alkalinity?
A: Add baking soda.

That question is unclear whether the author is asking for the best way (an opinion), for all ways (facts) or something else. The answer too is unclear whether it is an opinion that the author thinks is best, a fact that the author believes is the only way, or something else.

Thus, my suggestion is for folks posing question to make it as clear as possible if they are looking for facts or opinions, and for folks answering questions to make it clear which the answer is.

Q: How should I raise alkalinity? (asking for opinions)
Q: How can I raise alkalinity? (asking for facts)

A: Adding baking soda is the best/easiest/cheapest way (opinion)
A: Adding baking soda is the only way (fact, but inaccurate)
A: Adding baking soda is one of many possible ways (accurate fact)

Thanks for reading and Happy reefing!
 
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TokenReefer

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It seems (to me) simply using appropriate wording can differentiate whether fact or opinion is being stated although often times that consideration (for proper wording) is neglected... Purposefully or otherwise. Opinion ;) . Good points. Following
 
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thatmanMIKEson

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es·o·ter·ic
/ˌesəˈterik/
adjective
intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.
"esoteric philosophical debates"
 

TnFishwater98

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is that so uma thurman GIF
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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I know that question sounds jesting but it's legit/the amount of calculated recourse off those tests is $$ amazing, the impact to reefer's confidence, truly its an impactful situation honestly. testers cannot discern fact from fiction with today's kits and it changes the course of their reefing permanently we see in post patterns in my opinion
 

Rick Mathew

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I know that question sounds jesting but it's legit/the amount of calculated recourse off those tests is $$ amazing, the impact to reefer's confidence, truly its an impactful situation honestly. testers cannot discern fact from fiction with today's kits and it changes the course of their reefing permanently we see in post patterns in my opinion
Interesting opinion. Does this apply to all test kits across the board or just the API you mentioned above?
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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I'm on a never ending quest to figure out why if we searched out 1000 seneye logs uploaded to the web, calibrated and trimmed and slide prepped correctly of course, they all show absolutely no reef tank displays lacking ammonia control by day ten or ever losing ammonia control thereafter given normal runnings (without a fish kill from disease or hardware issues left in the tank to rot driving up the levels)

out of the several thousand seneye log uploads to facebook and various forums we occasionally see seneye misreads but given any adherence to the instructions/slide preps/ those rates drop substantially

api users can follow the instructions on the kit and still get wild variance in readings, post trendings show

Im fascinated by the rule that we as cycle umpires apply to discern when a stated level from one of those kits is deemed right vs wrong



for sure red sea has some impacts in the matter, the subjectivity of color guessing is just a huge market mover, confidence destroyer, it sets back reefing in fascinating ways in my opinion

api merely gets the brunt for being the longest running/most consulted tester of them all. honestly though there must be over 100 "8 ppm api alert" threads its just so fascinating that to own a seneye and set it up correctly/prep the slides correctly just stops all form of cycling concern. it's amazing what this distinction causes in my opinion

friendships are forged and destroyed over what API says and how umpires react to the stated levels in web posts, it's so polarizing/fascinating subject = are cycling charts wrong, does the control for ammonia take longer than ten days in common arrangements and does it ever rise back up without a fish kill preceding the event

hundreds of thousands of extra bottles of bacteria are sold annually to people using any non digital kit and feeling their cycle is dead, vs just being a nit picky statement I really find this stuff market moving. big $$ is at stake in cycling truth vs fiction / that's why it draws me

relevancy here: what we take as truth vs opinion in cycling ranges greatly post to post.
 
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_sludgefactory

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I disagree with your assessment that a fact can be false. In fact, i cannot find any definition of the word fact where it says one can be untrue. The defining feature of a fact is that it is true.

What i would say is your definition of a fact is your opinion.
 

Sean Clark

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I was excited while reading this thread's original post. That is a fact.
Now, reading this far, I am discouraged and feel that this thread has already lost its way. That is an opinion.
 
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TnFishwater98

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I disagree with your assessment that a fact can be false. In fact, i cannot find any definition of the word fact where it says one can be untrue. The defining feature of a fact is that it is true.

What i would say is your definition of a fact is your opinion.
Have you not heard the Facts that come out of DC….?
They are untrue … :smiling-face-with-sunglasses:
(Fact)
 
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KrisReef

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Take home message, Facts are Opinions with a metric to confirm believers.

I had a long semester class where the teacher expounded upon “Is &”Ought,” as in what is and what ought to be. I have forgotten the man’s name but I think I recall his face.
I have undiagnosed dyslexia and it follows that I struggle with opinion vs fact distinctions but since it’s been pointed out I will try and comply.

Didn’t leave many hooks for future discussions, in my opinion.
 

Aaron75

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I'm on a never ending quest to figure out why if we searched out 1000 seneye logs uploaded to the web, calibrated and trimmed and slide prepped correctly of course, they all show absolutely no reef tank displays lacking ammonia control by day ten or ever losing ammonia control thereafter given normal runnings (without a fish kill from disease or hardware issues left in the tank to rot driving up the levels)

out of the several thousand seneye log uploads to facebook and various forums we occasionally see seneye misreads but given any adherence to the instructions/slide preps/ those rates drop substantially

api users can follow the instructions on the kit and still get wild variance in readings, post trendings show

Im fascinated by the rule that we as cycle umpires apply to discern when a stated level from one of those kits is deemed right vs wrong



for sure red sea has some impacts in the matter, the subjectivity of color guessing is just a huge market mover, confidence destroyer, it sets back reefing in fascinating ways in my opinion

api merely gets the brunt for being the longest running/most consulted tester of them all. honestly though there must be over 100 "8 ppm api alert" threads its just so fascinating that to own a seneye and set it up correctly/prep the slides correctly just stops all form of cycling concern. it's amazing what this distinction causes in my opinion

friendships are forged and destroyed over what API says and how umpires react to the stated levels in web posts, it's so polarizing/fascinating subject = are cycling charts wrong, does the control for ammonia take longer than ten days in common arrangements and does it ever rise back up without a fish kill preceding the event

hundreds of thousands of extra bottles of bacteria are sold annually to people using any non digital kit and feeling their cycle is dead, vs just being a nit picky statement I really find this stuff market moving. big $$ is at stake in cycling truth vs fiction / that's why it draws me

relevancy here: what we take as truth vs opinion in cycling ranges greatly post to post.
It's not likely that any amount of bacteria purchased would outweigh the cost of buying a seneye, just for a cycle. API gets a brunt of the bad examples because they're everywhere. The sheer volume in use is bound to show bad results. A quick search on Amazon shows 108 reviews with an average 3.4 star review for seneye. Api? 32,639 4.7 star reviews. 32k reviews, that's not even the number purchased or used. Anybody getting into the hobby should know Ammonia tests show .25 when 0. But even Hanna suffers from that same interference. Other than that, API is just fine if you know how to read instructions and aren't color blind.
 

drolmaeye

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I disagree with your assessment that a fact can be false. In fact, i cannot find any definition of the word fact where it says one can be untrue. The defining feature of a fact is that it is true.

What i would say is your definition of a fact is your opinion.
I had a similar reaction, and thought something along the lines of distinguishing a verifiable statement from a fact (the latter being a verifiable statement that was true, or at least not yet falsified, if you're a Karl Popper sort of person).

Your post got me to look a bit and I found this:


and it appears that historically, a fact could describe a verifiable statement that could be true or false. These details aside, I think I can appreciate the distinction made by the OP.
 

KrisReef

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I had a similar reaction, and thought something along the lines of distinguishing a verifiable statement from a fact (the latter being a verifiable statement that was true, or at least not yet falsified, if you're a Karl Popper sort of person).

Your post got me to look a bit and I found this:


and it appears that historically, a fact could describe a verifiable statement that could be true or false. These details aside, I think I can appreciate the distinction made by the OP.
You fact check at work? :)
Edit: Thanks btw, I was too lazy myself.
 
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EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal

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It's not likely that any amount of bacteria purchased would outweigh the cost of buying a seneye, just for a cycle. API gets a brunt of the bad examples because they're everywhere. The sheer volume in use is bound to show bad results. A quick search on Amazon shows 108 reviews with an average 3.4 star review for seneye. Api? 32,639 4.7 star reviews. 32k reviews, that's not even the number purchased or used. Anybody getting into the hobby should know Ammonia tests show .25 when 0. But even Hanna suffers from that same interference. Other than that, API is just fine if you know how to read instructions and aren't color blind.
He's a shill for seneye but by his own admission doesn't own one
 

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