Extremely frustrated, can't lower nitrates on established reef. Massive water changes, bacteria supplement, carbon dosing, chaeto...NOTHING WORKS!

[2Wheelsonly]

The tank seems so unstable. Why not stop carbon dosing and try macro algae? I experimented with carbon dosing on the 10 gallon and ran into several problems

That fact that chaeto wont survive and I would have to probably get a new sump to support different types of macro algae leads me to believe i'll probably just create more nitrates killing it off.

 

[amazongb]

I’m not sure I’ve ever read a post that mentioned dosing Vibrant and follow it up with no pox.. it seems that since Vibrant is some sort of mystery bacteria and no pox feeds existing bacteria, my hunch is nopox can’t do its job due to the vibrant mystery strain. And dosing nopox while its showing no sign of reducing nitrates should probably be stopped imo. if its not feeding bacteria, then what could it be doing? Feeding the vibrant strain? Who knows..

if it were me, I’d just stick with water changes and ride it out.. if anything dose PO4 and maintain .10..maybe put neophos on a doser and trickle like 3ml over a 24 hour period and test.

also, what are the expiration dates on all your test kits?

 

[2Wheelsonly]

I’m not sure I’ve ever read a post that mentioned dosing Vibrant and follow it up with no pox.. it seems that since Vibrant is some sort of mystery bacteria and no pox feeds existing bacteria, my hunch is nopox can’t do its job due to the vibrant mystery strain. And dosing nopox while its showing no sign of reducing nitrates should probably be stopped imo. if its not feeding bacteria, then what could it be doing? Feeding the vibrant strain? Who knows..

if it were me, I’d just stick with water changes and ride it out.. if anything dose PO4 and maintain .10..maybe put neophos on a doser and trickle like 3ml over a 24 hour period and test.

also, what are the expiration dates on all your test kits?

All red sea and salifert test kits were replaced this month. I went out and bought all new kits to ensure I was not fighting old reagents. My hanna checker is about 1 year old but I am using brand new reagent from brs. I am also using new glass vials for my hanna.

The vibrant was dosed for roughly two weeks (one dose per week) and I saw much clearer water and it killed my algae quickly. According to UWC the strand does not live long. It was a few weeks between vibrant/nopox as my nopox was a reaction to seeing high nitrates since I have always maintained no3 of 5 I was shocked to see such dark pink on the test results.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I have an established reef about 4 years old. Primarily SPS; about 2 months ago I had a nitrate spike of about 60 after I used Vibrant to get rid of some hair algae in tough spots (it killed algae within my two week dose of 30ml once per week). I typically run the tank anywhere from 5-10.

Has anyone considered that Vibrant may be the cause of the problem some how?

Did Vibrant directly or indirectly reduce de-nitrifying bacteria population?

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Tanks that have algae strongly assimulating ammonia- nitrite & nitrate have smaller populations of nitrifying bactetia. Perhaps when the vibrant killed the hair algae the bacteria weren't up to the task & their population just needs to be given time to grow.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

Tanks that have algae strongly assimulating ammonia- nitrite & nitrate have smaller populations of nitrifying bactetia. Perhaps when the vibrant killed the hair algae the bacteria weren't up to the task & their population just needs to be given time to grow.

I am wondering the same thing. I wont be using vibrant again, not to say it's a bad product but i'm not smart enough to dose things that have unique purposes because now i'm scrambling like an idiot as my tank declines and probably making things worse. When you are seeing over $5,000 worth of corals die in a weeks time you start to panic in a bad way.

I am starting to see my hardiest coral ever start to die off rapidly it's my massive green birdsnest seriatpora. It grows so fast I am not worried about losing it and it's basically a pest at this point but the fact that there are signs of stn on it worries me because I have never seen that stuff die before; it's like the xenia of the sps world.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I am wondering the same thing. I wont be using vibrant again, not to say it's a bad product but i'm not smart enough to dose things that have unique purposes because now i'm scrambling like an idiot as my tank declines and probably making things worse. When you are seeing over $5,000 worth of corals die in a weeks time you start to panic in a bad way.

I am starting to see my hardiest coral ever start to die off rapidly it's my massive green birdsnest seriatpora. It grows so fast I am not worried about losing it and it's basically a pest at this point but the fact that there are signs of stn on it worries me because I have never seen that stuff die before; it's like the xenia of the sps world.

Reef keeping can be slow torture. And a s a result of best intentions.

 

[Lasse]

If there is Cyanobacteria - I always stop carbon dosing - especially if I use NOPOx. I think this two quotes emphasize that you should stop this. If the Mb7 contain DOC - stop that too. My bold

Cyano also grows in the back wall of tank and I usually get white film from the bacteria (mb7) on the front every 2 days.

I am continuing to carbon dose; cyano seems to increase as I dose. I read that mb7 could eventually out compete it and people use it to combat cyano. I am not TOO concerned about the cyano as I know it's from the nutrient imbalance.

This is also rather significant - IMO

That fact that chaeto wont survive

if its not feeding bacteria, then what could it be doing? Feeding the vibrant strain? Who knows..

If Vibrant is a bacteria strain - it is probably a heterotrophic bacteria. This type of bacteria need a "fast" carbon source (read DOC - Dissolved Organic Carbon) in order to grow fast. If you get a white film on your front window - you have a huge growth of heterotrophic bacteria - the vibrant strain could be on of them - you can never know.

And I´ll like a stubborn old man - I still come back to - try to confirm that you do not have a nitrite problem. For me - all things just indicate this. High nitrate readings (WC not change it), Huge growth of heterotrophic bacteria (the white film) - it is everywhere even if you can´t see it - even on the stones and other surfaces that should been occupied by slow growing nitrifying bacteria

IMO - stop all dosing of DOC - take it slow - not panic and try to rise your PO4 up around 0.1 for the moment (you can lower it later on if you want)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[2Wheelsonly]

If there is Cyanobacteria - I always stop carbon dosing - especially if I use NOPOx. I think this two quotes emphasize that you should stop this. If the Mb7 contain DOC - stop that too. My bold




This is also rather significant - IMO




If Vibrant is a bacteria strain - it is probably a heterotrophic bacteria. This type of bacteria need a "fast" carbon source (read DOC - Dissolved Organic Carbon) in order to grow fast. If you get a white film on your front window - you have a huge growth of heterotrophic bacteria - the vibrant strain could be on of them - you can never know.

And I´ll like a stubborn old man - I still come back to - try to confirm that you do not have a nitrite problem. For me - all things just indicate this. High nitrate readings (WC not change it), Huge growth of heterotrophic bacteria (the white film) - it is everywhere even if you can´t see it - even on the stones and other surfaces that should been occupied by slow growing nitrifying bacteria

IMO - stop all dosing of DOC - take it slow - not panic and try to rise your PO4 up around 0.1 for the moment (you can lower it later on if you want)

Sincerely Lasse

Sounds good, going to stop carbon/mb7 and just stick to keeping po4 up, feeding and changing my water.

As mentioned my pH has been very high during this whole ordeal. Does that coincide with anything you're seeing?

 

[jomatty]

I’m certainly no expert, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but that said...
I understand your reluctance to try to more macro algae but I would consider a hair algae scrubber instead. Especially since one can be DIY’d for next to nothing. A simple DIY scrubber of a plastic screen (from craft store) attached to a pvc pipe cut or drilled to drip over the screen with a hardware store grow light shining on has worked wonders for me in the past. Of course buying (or building) an enclosed scrubber lit from both sides would be much more efficient, but you can test the theory for like than $10 and half an hours work (assuming you have an old maxi jet/small pump or a manifold you can run it with) and if you see progress you could decide if you want to buy or make a better one. The only question I have is if you can grow algae on it or not considering how clean your tank is of algae. There is not even any algae growing on the glass or overflow? I guess I would keep dosing the po4 and trying to get that more in balance if that’s the case. I’m a big fan of refugiums but nothing has worked like an algae scrubber for me to bring nitrates down.

 

[fermentedhiker]

Vibrant has a carbon source in it already and the manufacturer of Vibrant posted on another thread that you can carbon dose while dosing Vibrant with no problem. That doesn't mean it's a good idea in your situation though.

 

[OrionN]

IMO, the problem is your medication dosing. I am not sure how often you dose medications but your bacterial population is out of wack and does not process the Nitrogen cycle, ammonia/nitrate/nitrates, appropriately.
A sand fairly deep bed without interference, due to the enormous surface, will drive the Nitrate to essentially 0. This is the easiest way to get nitrate to 0. The anaerobic bacterial in the sand bed will convert nitrate to N2 and release it into the air. When you add chemical like Vibrant to the tank, it inhibit some of the bacterial in the tank and disrupted your nitrogen cycle. That is why your Nitrate is not processed.

If I am you, don't add anything else into the tank. Keep do water change. Once your are reasonably sure most of the chemical you added diluted, you need to reseed your tank and start over. Good luck.

Feed the tank less and remove some fish if you can.

 

[Lasse]

Does that coincide with anything you're seeing?

How do you measure pH. If electronically - how old Is your pH probe?. How do the pH alter during day? did the pH rise directly after your Vibrant treatment?

For the book - a good nitrification (with both steps working properly) - will consume alkalinity - lower the pH. On the other hand a good denitrification will rise the pH. A huge population of aerobic heterotrophic population will produce a lot of CO2 - lower the pH.

But first - ensure that the pH rise is real

sincerely Lasse

 

[SeaDweller]

Run a sulfur denitrator And kiss NO3 problems good bye

 

[Lasse]

ounds good, going to stop carbon/mb7 and just stick to keeping po4 up, feeding and changing my water.

As always - take my advises with caution - it is what I would do in my tank but always with knowing - it can go wrong. Look at your tank - if it help with this actions - it is good but be prepared to change strategy if it get worse.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[NanoDJS]

If it was me , I would put the monster skimmer on a timer and skim half what your do now, I think this may be an issue with establishing the bacteria population, stop the insane no pox dose, raise your phosphates to compliment the nitrates more , chuck some new seed bacteria , run a poly filter for a lil while , and crank up your lights a bit more , I just had the same thing happen in my 80g DT with 40gfrag tank 40g sump system. nutes got to po 3 no 45 , detailed my regime in another thread , and within 2 weeks I have been back to a stable po .5 ish and no 10 ish , mixed reef with fresh basing acros , now I pulled the poly , stopped the no pox , lowered lights back down , only other thing i did was 20% WC x2 times that first week. ( which gave me some silicates dang you ) my old water was the orig 4 years old water in the system with fritz. Hope that it all comes together

 

[LAReefer4Life]

Is there any way to know this for sure? I just test 3 times with hanna ULR and it shows 34pbb, 33pbb, and 34pbb which is 1.0po4. If that's not a true indicator of how much po4 is available I am wondering why we even spend time measuring it.

Just wanted to make sure you understand that 34pbb doesn’t convert 1.0ppm PO4 as stated you stated here.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

Just wanted to make sure you understand that 34pbb converts into .034ppm not 1.0ppm PO4 as stated you stated here.

sorry I meant to say 0.1

I am using this chart and formula by Hanna to check:

https://www.hannainst.com/hubfs/006-finished-content/Aquarium/phosphorus-to-phosphate-conversion-table--hanna-instruments.pdf

ppb to ppm is ppb x 3.066 / 1000

34 x 3.066 = 104.244 / 1000 = 0.104

 

[amazongb]

Just wanted to make sure you understand that 34pbb converts into .034ppm not 1.0ppm PO4 as stated you stated here.

According to this chart https://www.hannainst.com/hubfs/006...phate-conversion-table--hanna-instruments.pdf
It converts to .104

The chart indicates that 11ppb = .034

 

[amazongb]

sorry I meant to say 0.1

I am using this chart and formula by Hanna to check:

https://www.hannainst.com/hubfs/006-finished-content/Aquarium/phosphorus-to-phosphate-conversion-table--hanna-instruments.pdf

ppb to ppm is ppb x 3.066 / 1000

34 x 3.066 = 104.244 / 1000 = 0.104

You beat me to it