Extremely frustrated, can't lower nitrates on established reef. Massive water changes, bacteria supplement, carbon dosing, chaeto...NOTHING WORKS!

[Scrubber_steve]

Wow.....what a tread...7 pages and nobody asks you what your putting in your tank to feed all them fish? Nutrients don’t just appear outta no where. First check your input if you wanna control your output.

from the op "about 2 months ago I had a nitrate spike of about 60 after I used Vibrant to get rid of some hair algae in tough spots "

post # 25 "Just for educational purposes I am going to move my fish to a QT"

 

[TooTall]

Yes..... I read through the tread, First I see op has 6 tangs and a problem with hair algae....so I would assume high input.
Second....op changes 1000 gallons of water in 3 weeks in a 300 gallon tank and no change in nutrients...so I would assume high input

 

[Thomashtom]

Wow a 141 posts?

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Yes..... I read through the tread, First I see op has 6 tangs and a problem with hair algae....so I would assume high input.

Yes, understandable, but prior to dosing Vibrant the OP's readings were "Water tests 0 no3. P04: 0.05 ". This is probably why no one asked about feeding.

Second....op changes 1000 gallons of water in 3 weeks in a 300 gallon tank and no change in nutrients...so I would assume high input

input isn't the problem.

 

[Reef Tripp]

The best for NO3

Poor Man's Nutrients Control - Donovan's Nitrate Destroyer

Hello fellow reefers!. I have been in the hobby for more than 3 years, the first 2 years was tough. Cyno, diatom, nuisance algae, high NO3 (120ppm at one time) and ich/velvet. I have tried several nutrient control method (poor man, so most of it were DIY project). GFO, water fall scrubber...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Timvangthomas1]

The best for NO3

Poor Man's Nutrients Control - Donovan's Nitrate Destroyer

Hello fellow reefers!. I have been in the hobby for more than 3 years, the first 2 years was tough. Cyno, diatom, nuisance algae, high NO3 (120ppm at one time) and ich/velvet. I have tried several nutrient control method (poor man, so most of it were DIY project). GFO, water fall scrubber...

www.reef2reef.com

How many fish do you have? How much are you feeding?

 

[Lasse]

@2Wheelsonly Have you done a dilution test of your Nitrate testing yet? If you do - it is important that you use new saltwater (free from nitrate) as your dilution liquid. RODI water will give the wrong reading because the test is probably adapted to high chloride levels.

@Scrubber_steve state:

input isn't the problem.

IMO - everything is pointing at test error caused by one or more interfering ions.

I would also strongly recommend you to send in a ICP test and also a TRITON DOC-test. The DOC test will show you the correct content of N - from it you can calculate the maximum possible concentration of NO3 in your water - the real will be a little bit lesser (cause you have always other species of inorganic N and even organic N in the water column)

I´m not saying that your measurements of NO3 is wrong, but IMO - before doing a lot of changes - it is important to confirm your measurements. All hobby tests of nitrate is build on the same chemical theories (as I know) - therefore - wrong in one brand of test - will probably give the same (or near) false results. The only different test of N in the water column (as I know) is TRITON DOC test. It will show you the total content of N and from that you can calculate "worst case" of NO3 concentration. Just take the DOC tests total N and multiply with 4.43 and you get "worst case" concentration of NO3.

The DOC test will also give you your content of organic C and also inorganic C and a KH figure will be calculated.

To the Vibrant discussion: we do not know the action of the supposed bacteria on the algae. It could be toxins, it could be that the bacteria stop certain processes or target certain compounds in the algae. Everything I have read indicate that the algae get whitish and die. This indicate that some pigments disappear - and I have an idea which pigments will give the green colour of algae . As an example - STN/RTN often refers to a lack of zooxanthellae - expelled or killed.

Further on: we do not know how fast the actual bacteria decline in individuals and the linked video in one of the posts show that it is possible to have the population to grow during right environmental factors. We do not know which these factors are - we can´t rule out the risk of a reproductive population in our aquarium.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Gary Inwood]

Hello all, thanks for all the replies. I'll give you an update and answer some new questions.

#1: I stopped dosing vibrant a while ago as my green algae died and never came back. Other than dark purple/reddish cyano on lots of my rock I have no nuisance algae, even my bubble algae vanished. Just cyano on the surface of my rocks and some detritus in areas deep in the rock caves I can't get to. Cyano also grows in the back wall of tank and I usually get white film from the bacteria (mb7) on the front every 2 days.

#2: I am not sure what to trust with po4 checkers. My hanna showed anywhere from 4-7ppm which based on the conversion was 0.01-0.02. This would explain my cyano as I have a major nutrient imbalance as po4 0.01-02 vs 50 no3 is large.

#3: I did dose very small portions of Iron since posting (1-2 mil every other day) and saw slight reaction from my green acros; might have changed to be slightly darker but not really "better" but a reaction no less.

#4: I am continuing to carbon dose; cyano seems to increase as I dose. I read that mb7 could eventually out compete it and people use it to combat cyano. I am not TOO concerned about the cyano as I know it's from the nutrient imbalance.

#5: I took some advice and dosed po4 but am taking it slow. The one take away is that I feel the no3 test kit is starting to drop but it's hard to tell as the shades were so dark pink but I feel it's getting lighter. PE slightly better on some affected acros. The first time I dosed po4 I tested 2 hours later and got a higher reading, the next day it was back down to 5ppm so I felt it started shrinking again which would backup the theory that I was po4 limited.

My biggest question is whether to continue to dose po4 as my readings are currently at 0.05 and don't seem to be dropping after 24 hours. I am not sure with the accuracy of ULR mixed with age of unit if this is TRULY the case. My other po4 test kits still show clear water after reagents added. I am not sure how quickly I will notice no3 start to drop as po4 is raised.

*NOTE* there isn't a clear sign of ANY green algae to be found anywhere in the tank, I have searched high and low and can't find a single trace of algae.

For the person who asked my params:

CA: 400
Alk: 8.5
Mag: 1250-1290

You say you have a lot of cyano in your tank?
I would get it out of your tank because that would give you a false reading too. I had loads in the sump and on my rocks
I got rid of it and started a bio pellet reactor and my p04 and n03 are now at a acceptable levels. but it did take around 3 weeks before i saw any results.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

Yes..... I read through the tread, First I see op has 6 tangs and a problem with hair algae....so I would assume high input.
Second....op changes 1000 gallons of water in 3 weeks in a 300 gallon tank and no change in nutrients...so I would assume high input

Has not been much input from a feeding standpoint. I feed one portion of reef frenzy daily for the past 4 years; I use a dropper and usually put enough in so that every eats. I don't feed so much it looks like snow in my tank but my fish are fed and healthy. Also realize, as mentioned earlier this tank has had major stability for close to 4 years with very large colonies grown from 1 inch frags. My nitrates have always been 5 and 10 at most. My typical numbers are 5 no3 and 0.02 po4.

I still don't know where hair algae came from originally.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

So, testing no3 again and still no drop. Confirmed 50 no3 with more test kits; my LFS tested against their kits today and told me 50 also (I didn't tell them what I expected it to be before). Po4 is testing currently at 0.04

Here are some pictures that show some STN that gets worse by the day with new patches showing up today, I turned the white lights on further to show the browning. The large green acro in front is turning dark purple and the one in the middle is turning brown with STN on the underside. The green one in the back has major STN from base up.

Color-wise they were extremely vibrant green several weeks ago, the far one in the back with the STN going up the stem was grown from an electric staghorn from vivid, the two in the middle came from a single 1 inch frag (aussie green slimer from wwc). The last one is a cut from a colony I broke up of a PC rainbow acro which for all the small frags always seemed to have that deep maroon color the larger they got even when things were great but as you can see it's showing STN.

From a color standpoint, all my reds/blues/purples are perfectly fine. It's just my green corals that look like crap and they also happen to be my hardiest of corals. My sensitive ones like my orange passion look fine. I do have one fluorescent pink milli that's turning bright green.

At this point I don't even know what actually made them mad; it could be the constant high nitrates or maybe po4 bottomed out and nothing was available for the corals or maybe there was a point when the no3 spike was fairly sudden.

Fish seem fine, LOTS of cyano on rocks and my LPS and nuisance xenia are doing perfectly fine. Very slight bleaching on certain montipora but not bad at all.

As noted, I don't have a carbon reactor online for GAC but I have plenty of spare reactors and media in case. I'm trying to limit my changes but if there ARE toxins I would think GAC could help.

The greening of your acros will be caused by the addition of iron in the presence of high nitrate. In cases where you are iron limited, and you remove the limitation, you can cause the impacts of other elevated nutrients to be felt (like nitrate). In my post earlier in the thread about treading carefully with dosing iron with elevated nutrients, this is what I was referring to. Iron is an element that everyone needs, is very hard to test accurately for and gets used up quickly.

Whenever I see posts about tanks that have super high nutrients and yet look and grow great, I always think to myself that there is a limitation occurring that is keeping the effects of the super high nutrients from being realized. This works OK, until the tank owner varies the husbandry that was keeping the limitation at a level that kept the other nutrients at bay, but was high enough for success.

Sadly I have learned this lesson myself personally multiple times. Apparently I am a slow learner

I am now dosing Red Sea Coral Colours tied to my 2 part dose, mainly for the small Iron and Iodine additions in attempt to avoid falling back into the same situation in the future.

 

[Twocoralsonetank]

Late to the party here, but have you done an old fashion deep tank clean? Years 3 or 4 in a tank is when the detritus start to build up inside the rocks, around the rock base and with in the corners of the sump. It really starts to strangle the tank and it can't propery filter like it use to. Take the sump out and clean it then put the cheato back it. Deep clean the skimmer, then blast the rocks to get all the crap out. Try bubble scrubbing after that. If you have ever did a tank swap or moved a tank you will see how much detritus and crud builds up in the sand no matter how much you clean it. Slowly replacing the sand bed may be a option but it may really throws the tank into shock with that type of change. Just my two cents.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

I don’t know if it’s been asked/suggested but have you tried an ICP test? Something seems out of whack here. At a minimum, an ICP test would let you see if your test kits are accurate.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

Color has finally started to come back, one of my green colonies looks normal again with good PE. The most "browned out" corals are showing color and PE finally. My magenta milli is turning fluorescent magenta again (from green).

I feel dosing neo-phos was the answer. My most sensitive frags didn't miss a beat (walt disney, some fancy named $$$ milli's, orange passion, higher end WWC frags) but my hardy colonies that have always grown so fast all went south. Now that I look back and think of all the crap that went down I agree with all the folks that said my phosphates were the issue as my larger colonies were being starved when the needed the most.

What I think happened:

I used vibrant to kill hair/bubble algae in the more "interesting" rockwork areas where flow was an issue. Vibrant killed it all, nitrates spiked and my already low phosphates depleted even more and existing bacteria couldn't keep up. My nitrates went from 5-10 to 50 and the lack of phosphates starved my corals. I also dosed iron through the red sea colors as I was worried my trace elements were depleted before doing heavy water changes.

Moving forward:

My phosphates I feel are going to continue to be dosed until nitrates eventually come down, the only problem is it's creating thick cyano mats on some of the rock work. I am going to just deal with that until the system eventually balances out. I followed mb7 dose regiment for re-seeding so there was A LOT that went in the tank which should eventually out compete the cyano once I get my po4/no3 in better balance. I don't think I am going to carbon dose in the future, I am building an algae turf scrubber as we speak and hope to get it started by tomorrow. In the future I will see how things turn out and decide if I need a sulfur denitrator in the future.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

I don’t know if it’s been asked/suggested but have you tried an ICP test? Something seems out of whack here. At a minimum, an ICP test would let you see if your test kits are accurate.

Ordered but not here until Monday and of course will need to wait several weeks after it's sent off. Hopefully middle of Feb I will have a true picture; really interested to see my trace element numbers.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

Another note: Chaeto growing like crazy too.

 

[spidercrab]

Dose phosphate and the nitrate will be gone in a few days. Ohh yup neophos will do it. I bought dry phosphate a 100 year supply was only $10

 

[Jim Bertone]

Watching... same issues with nitrates, but without the use of vibrant product

 

[RocketEngineer]

One old school technique I haven’t seen mentioned is a remote deep sand bed, specifically a 5g bucket DSB. About 15 years ago Anthony Calfo talked about it as a way to decrease nitrates by creating a low (but not zero) oxygen zone where bacteria would take in nitrate and release nitrogen gas. I had one running exactly as he described it for several years and it did wonders knocking down my nitrate levels. Just something to research.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

I've been experimenting with small daily doses of PNS Probio ( https://www.algaebarn.com/shop/aquarium-supplies/pns-probio/ ), it contains bacteria used in water treatment that are capable (among other things) of sequestering nitrates. My nitrates went from running around 10-15 to about 4 with no other changes to my routine. You could try a big initial dose, which they also recommend when starting up a new tank. Worse case it doesn't help with the nitrates but it makes great coral food anyway.

Owner of Hydrospace here, we produce PNS ProBio... Thanks for reporting, Larry, especially for the numbers. Always great to find real-world, third-party data on this product from actual aquarists.

As you pointed out, this bacterium sequesters nitrate directly. It also can take up ammonia and nitrite the same way, meaning that nitrate isn't generated as a byproduct (as in nitrification). In other words, PNSB don't only remove nitrate through direct uptake but also indirectly by reducing the load on nitrifiers. Which is certainly one reason it is so useful when starting new tanks... among others!

Hope it keeps doing you well! Ken

 

[Arego]

Mine runs anywhere from 40-60 sometimes higher or lower depends how much I felt like feeding. On the other hand ca/ALK/mg are on a very short leash. I've explored every route, I don't even bother to check it unless I'm just curious.

Picture of my tank for reference. Please excuse the coloring one of my coral plus bulbs on the backside of the LEDs went out. Hope it works out for you.