MnFish1
10K Club member
This is an experiment that I have been doing for the last several months. The original Link is below (This is an example of how an experiment that has been done previously can be posted here).
Purpose: To determine whether :
1. Established cycled rock (>5 years) from a dark sump and a lit display can process 2 ppm ammonia after 24 hours (using about 1.5 l bs rock/gallon water)
2. Assuming that rock does not immediately process 2 ppm, over time - can further processing capability develop.?
3. Does ammonia processing capability come from glass/filters, etc?
4. Does photosynthesis affect ammonia processing capabilities?
5. Does rinsing and scrubbing with Salt water, Tap water (1 ppm Chlorine), Dechlorinated tap water - affect ammonia processing capability. ?
6. Do API and Seachem alert tests give similar results?
7. What about 'Rip-Cleans'.
Background: Many reefers take out rock, clean it of algae, etc - and replace it - a so-called Rip-Clean. Experiments of @Coxey81 and @sixty_reefer showed that rock from a dark sump and a lit display (respectively). - could eventually process 2 ppm ammonia/24 hours - but not at first. And that Rinsing and scrubbing rock diminished the ammonia processing capability in both tanks.
Materials:
2x 5 gallon tanks identical heaters set to 78, identical HOB filters (no media), identical power heads. Approximately 5 lbs of rock. Approximately 4 gallons of water. Dr. Tim's ammonia.
Results: well documented in the thread
Conclusions;
1 and 2. Established live rock from a dark sump and a lit display process ammonia.
1a. Dr. Tim's ammonia if instructions are followed result in overdoses > 4 ppm
1b. Thus a syringe with a measured amount of ammonia was added to 2 ppm.
1c. The display tank rock initially processed ammonia more slowly (when lit)
2a. Both tanks eventually processed 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours after days.
2b. This suggests that the capability for 'new' nitrifiers to develop exists - and that not all surfaces in the tank are completely covered with a full complement of bacteria
3. Does ammonia processing capability come from filters/glass/HOB, etc.
a. All rock was taken out of each tank - 2 ppm ammonia added. Processing did not occur.
b. The tanks, filters, heaters, etc were removed - sterilized (with bleach), dried, treated with chlorine neutralizer. Fresh water with 2 ppm ammonia was added. This was processed within 24 hours.
c. Thus - its unlikely (in this system) - that the building up of nitrification ability seen in conclusion 2 - is due to bacteria colonizing 'new plastic'.
4. To determine whether photosynthesis was playing a role in the differences between tanks.
a. A replicate experiment was done - with both sets of rock in the dark
b. The ammonia processing was identical.
c. My GUESS is that if large amounts of coral were on the rock - or large amounts of algae (there was very little in the display tank rock) - that photosynthesis may have played a stronger role
5. Rinsing and Scrubbing
a. Saltwater had no effect with rinsing.
b. Saltwater had no effect with rinsing and scrubbing.
c. Chlorinated tap water (tank temperature) decreased ammonia processing by about 50%
d. Non-chlorinated tap water decreased ammonia processing by perhaps 30-50 percent - there was an issue with test timing. There was an effect though.
e. These findings basically are similar to @Coxey81 and @sixty_reefer
6. API and Seachem results.
a. Contrary to many reports - the API and Seachem tests basically agreed 100 % of the time.
b. Even now there is no evidence that the Seachem disk is 'expiring' (I've been adding ammonia periodically to both tanks) and with in a day the disk is back to 'bright yellow' Safe.
c. The API test is (to me) somewhat cumbersome - but I saw no evidence that it was giving 'incorrect results'. I.e during tests when the ammonia test was slightly green - the Seachem alert was also not completely yellow. Within 8 hours - give or take - when the sachem alert was clear yellow, the API test was as well.
7. What about 'Rip-Cleans'. The benefit of these experiments in which ALL of the nitrification ability of a tank is 'rip-cleaned' shows to me a 'worse case scenario'. For example - If I take all of the rock out of my tank, clean it, put it back in - unlike these tests - 2 ppm ammonia will not immediately 'appear'. Thus - whether using salt water, or RODI or tap water (chlorine only) - a 'Rip-Clean' SHOULD be safe. See below:
Limitations of these tests:
1. These tests only relate to these tanks, these rocks and conditions.
2. I can imagine a tank where there was a large amount of living stuff on the rock - that could be 'killed' and cause an ammonia spike.
3. More constant ammonia measuring would be helpful. I.e. a Seneye - or more frequent testing - to get a better handle on the time course of nitrification (ie. the speed - and any changes with cleaning.
4. It would have been nice to have a 3rd ammonia test to compare API to for example Salifert as well as the Seachem alert.
5. I wish I would have had a low-range nitrite checker. It is my opinion that Nitrite is more of an issue when using dry - new rock. As compared to the rock used in these tests.
Thanks to everyone who commented, (and further comments are welcome). Additionally - the tanks are still set up - and I would open any new experiment suggestions.
www.reef2reef.com
Purpose: To determine whether :
1. Established cycled rock (>5 years) from a dark sump and a lit display can process 2 ppm ammonia after 24 hours (using about 1.5 l bs rock/gallon water)
2. Assuming that rock does not immediately process 2 ppm, over time - can further processing capability develop.?
3. Does ammonia processing capability come from glass/filters, etc?
4. Does photosynthesis affect ammonia processing capabilities?
5. Does rinsing and scrubbing with Salt water, Tap water (1 ppm Chlorine), Dechlorinated tap water - affect ammonia processing capability. ?
6. Do API and Seachem alert tests give similar results?
7. What about 'Rip-Cleans'.
Background: Many reefers take out rock, clean it of algae, etc - and replace it - a so-called Rip-Clean. Experiments of @Coxey81 and @sixty_reefer showed that rock from a dark sump and a lit display (respectively). - could eventually process 2 ppm ammonia/24 hours - but not at first. And that Rinsing and scrubbing rock diminished the ammonia processing capability in both tanks.
Materials:
2x 5 gallon tanks identical heaters set to 78, identical HOB filters (no media), identical power heads. Approximately 5 lbs of rock. Approximately 4 gallons of water. Dr. Tim's ammonia.
Results: well documented in the thread
Conclusions;
1 and 2. Established live rock from a dark sump and a lit display process ammonia.
1a. Dr. Tim's ammonia if instructions are followed result in overdoses > 4 ppm
1b. Thus a syringe with a measured amount of ammonia was added to 2 ppm.
1c. The display tank rock initially processed ammonia more slowly (when lit)
2a. Both tanks eventually processed 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours after days.
2b. This suggests that the capability for 'new' nitrifiers to develop exists - and that not all surfaces in the tank are completely covered with a full complement of bacteria
3. Does ammonia processing capability come from filters/glass/HOB, etc.
a. All rock was taken out of each tank - 2 ppm ammonia added. Processing did not occur.
b. The tanks, filters, heaters, etc were removed - sterilized (with bleach), dried, treated with chlorine neutralizer. Fresh water with 2 ppm ammonia was added. This was processed within 24 hours.
c. Thus - its unlikely (in this system) - that the building up of nitrification ability seen in conclusion 2 - is due to bacteria colonizing 'new plastic'.
4. To determine whether photosynthesis was playing a role in the differences between tanks.
a. A replicate experiment was done - with both sets of rock in the dark
b. The ammonia processing was identical.
c. My GUESS is that if large amounts of coral were on the rock - or large amounts of algae (there was very little in the display tank rock) - that photosynthesis may have played a stronger role
5. Rinsing and Scrubbing
a. Saltwater had no effect with rinsing.
b. Saltwater had no effect with rinsing and scrubbing.
c. Chlorinated tap water (tank temperature) decreased ammonia processing by about 50%
d. Non-chlorinated tap water decreased ammonia processing by perhaps 30-50 percent - there was an issue with test timing. There was an effect though.
e. These findings basically are similar to @Coxey81 and @sixty_reefer
6. API and Seachem results.
a. Contrary to many reports - the API and Seachem tests basically agreed 100 % of the time.
b. Even now there is no evidence that the Seachem disk is 'expiring' (I've been adding ammonia periodically to both tanks) and with in a day the disk is back to 'bright yellow' Safe.
c. The API test is (to me) somewhat cumbersome - but I saw no evidence that it was giving 'incorrect results'. I.e during tests when the ammonia test was slightly green - the Seachem alert was also not completely yellow. Within 8 hours - give or take - when the sachem alert was clear yellow, the API test was as well.
7. What about 'Rip-Cleans'. The benefit of these experiments in which ALL of the nitrification ability of a tank is 'rip-cleaned' shows to me a 'worse case scenario'. For example - If I take all of the rock out of my tank, clean it, put it back in - unlike these tests - 2 ppm ammonia will not immediately 'appear'. Thus - whether using salt water, or RODI or tap water (chlorine only) - a 'Rip-Clean' SHOULD be safe. See below:
Limitations of these tests:
1. These tests only relate to these tanks, these rocks and conditions.
2. I can imagine a tank where there was a large amount of living stuff on the rock - that could be 'killed' and cause an ammonia spike.
3. More constant ammonia measuring would be helpful. I.e. a Seneye - or more frequent testing - to get a better handle on the time course of nitrification (ie. the speed - and any changes with cleaning.
4. It would have been nice to have a 3rd ammonia test to compare API to for example Salifert as well as the Seachem alert.
5. I wish I would have had a low-range nitrite checker. It is my opinion that Nitrite is more of an issue when using dry - new rock. As compared to the rock used in these tests.
Thanks to everyone who commented, (and further comments are welcome). Additionally - the tanks are still set up - and I would open any new experiment suggestions.
New Nitrifying Bacteria Experiment.
Several people have been kind enough (@Coxey81 and @sixty_reefer) to do a couple experiments and comment (@Lasse, @Dan_P, @taricha) on the effects of freshwater and scrubbing live rock on nitrifying capacity (whether by bacteria, algae or both). These experiments are meant to repeat and extend...
www.reef2reef.com
