Derek Clifford
Community Member
How much are you dosing? what is system volume and what levels are you seeing on phosphate now?
Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?
- Thread starter mcarroll
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My system is 65 gallons. I started dosing seachem flourish phosphorus mid October via auto doser. I started slowly as to not upset my sps. 1 ml/day, then 2 then 4 then 6 then 10 ml/day; this seemed to do nothing to my phosphate levels at first; they stayed at 0.02 to 0.03; I heard about this phenomenon, that it takes a lot of dosing before you start seeing any big changes. On October 30th, i upped the dosing to 14 ml/day; yesterday, my phosphate registered at 0.2 ppm (above 0.1 ppm is the target), so I cut the dosing to 7 ml/day, and today lvls dropped to 0.15 ppm... I’ll measure again tomorrow and decide if I want to up the dosing a tad or keep things the same ; this is by the way the highest levels of phosphates ever recorded in the 16 month that my tank has been running. It’s almost always undetectable, which made me happy but I am starting to realize that zero phosphates is not as good as we were led to believe.
On the nitrate side; I had detectable nitrates as I was dosing potassium nitrate for over 3 month to improve sps color, but I had stopped dosing that in early October because my potassium levels where very high (500+ ppm) and I was concerned with potassium toxicity (some reefers think over 420 is bad, others don’t think it’s a big deal... the story of the reefing community
Anyways, when I started battling dinos mid October, I dosed a few mls of KNO3 to raise nitrates to 5 ppm. I also removed 2 liters of siporax from my sump; they where too efficient at denitrifying. My nitrates have been stable at 5 ppm since then without any KNO3 dosing
My sps are looking better than ever for the moment... fingers crossed
sfin52
So many pedestrians so little time
Your right no phosphates is a big problem. I was told as you were no phosphates that's why you have algae. Having algea is not the problem. How we deal with the algea is the problem. Instead of increasing my cuc it choose gfo. Than the Dino appeared and livestock lost. I wish I knew than what I know now. I've been edumacated
mwilk19
Well-Known Member
I have to replace some of the rock in 120. Darn GSP. It's probably going to be 20 to 30lbs. Was there any thought about adding dry rock as opposed to live rock and Dino outbreaks?
sfin52
So many pedestrians so little time
Sorry to hear about your rock. My gsp is just starting to cross the sand toward my main rock work hoping to advoid that scenario.
Yes, both ended up with Dinos. From what I've gathered they are in all tanks. They are transported on fish and coral. I've read that coral can even expel them in their waste. So starting with dry rock won't stop them. They key is to keep the dino from becoming an issue with 0 phosphates and 0 nitrates.
Yes, both ended up with Dinos. From what I've gathered they are in all tanks. They are transported on fish and coral. I've read that coral can even expel them in their waste. So starting with dry rock won't stop them. They key is to keep the dino from becoming an issue with 0 phosphates and 0 nitrates.
mwilk19
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply. I don't know if it was in this thread or not but there was a theory being floated that the use of dry rock may be in some way responsible for the increase in Dino outbreaks that we've seen. I've been Dino free since I added the UV sterilizer and increased my No3 and Po4.
sfin52
So many pedestrians so little time
I don't think it has to to with the rock more often than not nutrient depleted tanks. Po4 and No3 after all they are evil.
Derek Clifford
Community Member
Thanks for the excellent and detailed reply. I was starting to get nervous that my dosing wasn't doing anything to phosphate. I only increased to 2ml a couple of days ago. I will continue to increase and measure. I like the slow approach.
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mcarroll
10K Club member
Dry rock (obviously) has no microbial diversity. Microbial diversity is what gives a tank stability.
For the right diversity, we want a system that is oriented toward algae, corals and phytoplankton – not oriented toward bacteria. That means we want carbon limitation, but available nitrogen and phosphorous. This puts the photosynthesizers "in charge" (they can make their own carbon) and encourages the right balance of microbes.
In contrast...
When you put dead rock in a carbon-saturated tank (i.e. carbon dosing), you get a bacterially oriented system. If allowed, bacteria will massively outcompete corals, algae and phyto for N and P, reducing levels down too low for other critters to use them.
This is where Dino's wake up and realize they are starving to death. But unlike the corals, algae and phyto which more or less just die off when starved like that, dino's switch into predator mode and start eating the available bacteria and nuking anything else left alive with toxins. An excellent survival strategy.
When you're starting out and don't see any PO4 remaining after 24 hours, I recommend increasing your dose amount by 1mL every dose (every day) until you DO see some remaining the next day. Then you can go back to using calculated doses to maintain the specific level you're after.
TbyZ
Well-Known Member
hi mcarroll; I've just started reading a little of this thread (very interesting) & I'm curious on your thoughts.
When you speak of bacteria are you refering to just pelagic bacteria or benthic as well?
With "carbon limitation" I assume you are refering to disolved organic carbon,,, yes? Of all sources?
In regards to low PO4 levels causing dinos, I haven't had a PO4 reading on a salifert for a long time. But I haven't had dinos. Yet I have no trouble getting algae to grow in my scrubber.
Thoughts
cheers
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mcarroll
10K Club member
You're on the right track! This thread is not for everyone and is definitely not about chasing numbers.
As you read through the first and subsequent posts, you should notice a trend for the kind of tank that shows up here:
- New tank
- Dead rock
- Artificial nutrient controls in place.
Including GFO, carbon dosing (vodka, vinegar, bio-pellets, etc), bio-blocks, et al. - Problems
Speaking generally about bacteria, BTW. In general they cannot fix their own carbon. In a carbon limited ecosystem, this makes them subordinate to the critters that CAN make their own carbon.
Check out these posts from my blog:
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mcarroll
10K Club member
Wondering what anyone thinks about possibly getting this thread moved to the Algae (including nuisance algae and bacteria) forum in the "Saltwater Inverts" section?
My goal in putting the thread here (Reef Discussions) was initially to get the thread and info in front of the most newbie eyeballs as was possible and the algae forum seemed more isolated. I'm not sure that's all still the case...
Other factors I'm thinking about:
My goal in putting the thread here (Reef Discussions) was initially to get the thread and info in front of the most newbie eyeballs as was possible and the algae forum seemed more isolated. I'm not sure that's all still the case...
Other factors I'm thinking about:
The Dino thread from heck continues to surface over there (please please let a mod close it).
@SantaMonica's Sticky is the only real troubleshooting resource in that forum at all so far. It's great, but necessarily limited since it's a general guide.
@SantaMonica's Sticky is the only real troubleshooting resource in that forum at all so far. It's great, but necessarily limited since it's a general guide.
Beardo
Well-Known Member
I think that is the appropriate place for it now. Seems to be a relatively large number of dino threads in that sub-forum. I would have done the same as you initially though and put in reef discussions due to the volume of traffic there.
Derek Clifford
Community Member
The best thing would be for this thread or its final location to be at the top of a google search for Dinos. I really learned a lot from it.
Can someone give me some advise; I’ve veen dosing dinoxal for a week now and have done a 7 day blackout, 5 days total darkness and 2 days lights off. Now starting to ramp up my lights, blues and violet @ 40%. Dino’s are 95% gone, I still have some brown spots that apear every morning in the same place. Nitrate is at 5 ppm and phosphate at 0,15. Every day I add some biodigest. Should I stop with the dinoxal dosing and let the tank recover?
ImpossibleKid
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If you suspect dinoflagellates the first step is to positively identify the species via microscope. Doesn't need to be an expensive one. A toy microscope like this or similar will do. Post pictures and if at all possible a video and the fine folks here will help identify the species and the steps that can be taken to battle it.
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