Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[reeferfoxx]

Ok - this will sound like I am ready to give up the battle all together, but I am committed to battle for a few weeks. But also curious about the ‘reset’ option. While fighting the good fight is noble, one must keep the fallacy of sunk cost in mind.

So here are some questions that I am hoping some would chime in on:
1) what are the prospects of moving sps and fish into a new temp tank without bringing in Dino for the ride?
Perhaps if I cut out my sps colonies (without getting life rock), rinse them really well several times (ie simulating a serial dilution)?
2) what would be the best way to disinfect display tank. If I get rid of rock and sand? Would bleach kill the cysts? Strong solution of hydrogen peroxide? Vinegar? Judo chop? Roundhouse kick to their prorocentrum?

I hear you. Dinos are so frustrating. Especially now that conventional means of reef keeping don't apply anymore. No longer can we run gfo or take big steps in nutrient reduction. At least that is my experience.

If you are planning a reset I would plan on new rock, sand, and coral. Dinos will travel on everything. I've planned this out multiple times. Or you could bleach or acid bathe the old rock. Personally I would rather have rock and sand cycled before rebooting the tank.

Also plan on bleaching the tank. I plan on filling the tank with tap water and some bleach and letting it run through the tank. Then cleaning and dechlorinating.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Only thing I've been dosing is mag and cal.

I'm actually in the process of switching out my calcium supplement. I use seachem reef fusion 1 and 2. The calcium supplement has trace elements in it. I know it sounds strange but dinos don't only use N and P to create there structures. Some articles talk about trace element, metals and vitamins that can be deficient in dinos. Therefore, keeping them from having these deficiencies can help encourage growth in that manor.

 

[Derek Clifford]

I'm actually in the process of switching out my calcium supplement. I use seachem reef fusion 1 and 2. The calcium supplement has trace elements in it. I know it sounds strange but dinos don't only use N and P to create there structures. Some articles talk about trace element, metals and vitamins that can be deficient in dinos. Therefore, keeping them from having these deficiencies can help encourage growth in that manor.

Does anyone know if there is a link between silicates and Dinos? ICP has always shown silicates for me. It is the main reason for me running Rowaphos.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I know it sounds strange but dinos don't only use N and P to create there structures. Some articles talk about trace element, metals and vitamins that can be deficient in dinos. Therefore, keeping them from having these deficiencies can help encourage growth in that manor.

It doesn't sound strange to me. Every photosynthetic organism needs a variety of trace elements. Iron, manganese, zinc, etc.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does anyone know if there is a link between silicates and Dinos? ICP has always shown silicates for me. It is the main reason for me running Rowaphos.

Dinos do not use silicate in any way.

Is there any link? That's more complicated. Things that do use silicate (e.g., diatoms, snails, sponges, etc.) can alter the environment in ways that might help or hurt dinos.

 

[landlubber]

I hear you. Dinos are so frustrating. Especially now that conventional means of reef keeping don't apply anymore. No longer can we run gfo or take big steps in nutrient reduction. At least that is my experience.

If you are planning a reset I would plan on new rock, sand, and coral. Dinos will travel on everything. I've planned this out multiple times. Or you could bleach or acid bathe the old rock. Personally I would rather have rock and sand cycled before rebooting the tank.

Also plan on bleaching the tank. I plan on filling the tank with tap water and some bleach and letting it run through the tank. Then cleaning and dechlorinating.

good advice.
i've read here that the fish will also carry the issue over. any truth to this?

 

[reeferfoxx]

good advice.
i've read here that the fish will also carry the issue over. any truth to this?

I'm not sure. Evidence shows that fish can inadvertently consume dinos. Now do they stay alive during digestion? Not sure. However, the dinos that have toxins can release toxins inside the fish and create issues for the fish and anything that eats the fish. However, again I'm not sure if they carry or poop live or cyst form of dino.

 

[ImpossibleKid]

Ok - this will sound like I am ready to give up the battle all together, but I am committed to battle for a few weeks. But also curious about the ‘reset’ option. While fighting the good fight is noble, one must keep the fallacy of sunk cost in mind.

So here are some questions that I am hoping some would chime in on:
1) what are the prospects of moving sps and fish into a new temp tank without bringing in Dino for the ride?
Perhaps if I cut out my sps colonies (without getting life rock), rinse them really well several times (ie simulating a serial dilution)?
2) what would be the best way to disinfect display tank. If I get rid of rock and sand? Would bleach kill the cysts? Strong solution of hydrogen peroxide? Vinegar? Judo chop? Roundhouse kick to their prorocentrum?

I hear you. Dinos are so frustrating. Especially now that conventional means of reef keeping don't apply anymore. No longer can we run gfo or take big steps in nutrient reduction. At least that is my experience.

If you are planning a reset I would plan on new rock, sand, and coral. Dinos will travel on everything. I've planned this out multiple times. Or you could bleach or acid bathe the old rock. Personally I would rather have rock and sand cycled before rebooting the tank.

Also plan on bleaching the tank. I plan on filling the tank with tap water and some bleach and letting it run through the tank. Then cleaning and dechlorinating.

Let me just quickly offer my experience as a deterrent to a full tank reset. I know this is anecdotal, but I did it and wouldn't recommend it.

I bleached dry rock followed by an acid bath. I kept no coral (not that much was left by that point), got an entirely new tank, and finally freshwater dipped my fish. Cycled tank normally and it was after the diatom bloom that the dinos showed up along with cyano. I don't know if they made it through the freshwater dip or through the air somehow but I'm beginning to believe they're in all our tanks and something gets thrown out of whack in the tank, triggering a dino bloom.

In my opinion the reset was detrimental because I had absolutely no biodiversity in the tank and Ostreopsis had free reign. Your experience may vary, but this is what a tank reset got me:

 

[reeferfoxx]

I bleached dry rock followed by an acid bath.

I'm assuming you used the same rock from previous dino outbreak?

 

[ImpossibleKid]

I'm assuming you used the same rock from previous dino outbreak?

That's correct, although most of the rock was new dry rock that I bleached along with the old stuff. It's hard to believe anything could live through that kind of treatment but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that dinos could.

 

[reeferfoxx]

That's correct, although most of the rock was new dry rock that I bleached along with the old stuff. It's hard to believe anything could live through that kind of treatment but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that dinos could.

I suppose anything is possible. The tank I have now was cycled with dry reef saver rock. Initially I had a lot of po4 leaching out and with a lot of tank troubles(diatoms, chrysophytes, cyano, etc) might have lowered the ph so low that the rock was dissolving from the inside.

One rock in particular was a base rock and I wanted to break it up into pieces. In the process of trying to do so I found out the inside was mushy like wet concrete. Having left over dry rock that was never used, I did a curing process for 6 weeks but with GFO. I let it absorb po4 for about 2 weeks then cycled with bacteria.

When I was done, I pieced the new rock together and placed it into the tank. It wasn't long after that a dino outbreak started. My conclusion to that was the lack of PO4 resulted in a lack of bio diversity and micro fauna. In short, don't adjust nature because we don't like something. So it's possible that cysts could have stayed hidden within the pores that bleach and acid couldn't reach. If any LC or GFO was used in addition, could have helped the cause. Don't forget that when adding snails, they too bring in stuff that LFS might have had.

 

[Derek Clifford]

Dinos do not use silicate in any way.

Its something I suspected for a while.

I called into the lfs yesterday to buy something to dose phosphate. There was some shock and a chuckle as I explained what I was trying to do. The guys there are really knowledgable and very experienced. But they talked me out of dosing phosphate. I left with nothing, except recommendations. They recommended overfeeding to increase the phospates.
I was told to start completing water changes to reduce the silicates and nitrates, because the silicates are fueling the dinos.
I can see their point, but not sure what I need/want to do now.
They have 2 or 3 phosphate chems for plants.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Its something I suspected for a while.

I called into the lfs yesterday to buy something to dose phosphate. There was some shock and a chuckle as I explained what I was trying to do. The guys there are really knowledgable and very experienced. But they talked me out of dosing phosphate. I left with nothing, except recommendations. They recommended overfeeding to increase the phospates.
I was told to start completing water changes to reduce the silicates and nitrates, because the silicates are fueling the dinos.
I can see their point, but not sure what I need/want to do now.
They have 2 or 3 phosphate chems for plants.

It's interesting to me that a LFS doesn't want to make a sale. My assumption is they assumed you were battling diatoms and couldn't understand the difference.

I went to an LFS once to get my salinity checked. I brought the water in a hanna po4 vile. Handed to the guy and he says, "Wow, you test phosphates?" I said, "yeah?" He yells to a co-worker, "Hey [so and so], this one tests phosphates!" Co-worker replies, "Really!?"... I had a blank stare.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Its something I suspected for a while.

I called into the lfs yesterday to buy something to dose phosphate. There was some shock and a chuckle as I explained what I was trying to do. The guys there are really knowledgable and very experienced. But they talked me out of dosing phosphate. I left with nothing, except recommendations. They recommended overfeeding to increase the phospates.
I was told to start completing water changes to reduce the silicates and nitrates, because the silicates are fueling the dinos.
I can see their point, but not sure what I need/want to do now.
They have 2 or 3 phosphate chems for plants.

You can use any of several hobby brands or DIY sodium or potassium phosphate if you wish to dose:

https://www.ebay.com/i/391589742643?chn=ps&dispItem=1

 

[Derek Clifford]

It's interesting to me that a LFS doesn't want to make a sale. My assumption is they assumed you were battling diatoms and couldn't understand the difference.

They know I am battling dinos. I have shown them the microscope videos previously.
I guess the link between low nutrients and Dinos is not widely known or understood. I suppose Dinos is one of those subjects that you will never truely start to understand until you have battled with it.

 

[Beardo]

Ok - this will sound like I am ready to give up the battle all together, but I am committed to battle for a few weeks. But also curious about the ‘reset’ option. While fighting the good fight is noble, one must keep the fallacy of sunk cost in mind.

So here are some questions that I am hoping some would chime in on:
1) what are the prospects of moving sps and fish into a new temp tank without bringing in Dino for the ride?
Perhaps if I cut out my sps colonies (without getting life rock), rinse them really well several times (ie simulating a serial dilution)?
2) what would be the best way to disinfect display tank. If I get rid of rock and sand? Would bleach kill the cysts? Strong solution of hydrogen peroxide? Vinegar? Judo chop? Roundhouse kick to their prorocentrum?

I was at the point of doing a full reset not too long ago. I set up another tank in preparation for moving my corals out of my main display. I also set up a 20g as a QT/treatment tank and moved my UV to that to try to eliminate dinos before moving into the new tank. As I pulled corals from my main display, I did diluted peroxide dips 8:1 then 4:1 water:3% peroxide, followed by low salinity dips, 1.010 sg, then 1.008 then even straight DI water followed by 2 - 3 weeks in the QT tank. Even with all this I still ended up with amphidinium and recently found some ostreopsis from cysts that were brought over on the corals. Ostreopsis, Coolia and Prorocentrum were killed by the low salinity dips but not amphidinium or cysts of the others.
From my experience my recommendation would be if you want to do a full reset then completely start over and forget trying to save corals and inverts. There is also the possibility of bringing dinos on the fish from dinos on the slime coat. Freshwater dips and QT may be able to take care of that.

For disinfecting the system and ensuring cysts are killed; some testing was performed on ship ballast water. It took 1,000 ppm free chlorine residual for 24 hours to prevent any cysts from germinating. Hydrogen peroxide was also effective but at stronger doses leaving bleach as the best choice.

On a separate note, if a reset is the path that is decided, how do we then ensure dinos don't take over the system in the future? I bought a couple coral frags from a LFS (they were on consignment) and put them in QT. I collected some samples from the corals and put them under the scope and found Ostreopsis.
The best option seems to be the basis of this thread, establishing a healthy system with the biodiversity to handle the inadvertent introduction of dinos.

I ended up not resetting my system. Instead I upgraded my UV to a larger unit (as a last resort before resetting) which took care of the Ostreopsis, Coolia and Prorocentrum. I was not successful with eliminating amphidinium with elevated phosphates and nitrates and went the Dino-x route for them and suffered losses to corals and inverts.

Going forward, I will continue employing the methods discussed in this thread to help (re)establish that healthy biodiverse system along with QTing corals and inspecting samples under the scope.

 

[mcarroll]

They know I am battling dinos. I have shown them the microscope videos previously.
I guess the link between low nutrients and Dinos is not widely known or understood. I suppose Dinos is one of those subjects that you will never truely start to understand until you have battled with it.

If you look at the older Dino thread (and most other dino threads and articles that I've seen) we're out in the woods on this thread. Like camping! I can understand the LFS's response.

Plus there are so many kinds of dinos and levels of "gone" that your tank can be....it's possible that their recommendation may work in some scenario under some circumstances.

The closest I've seen to what we're doing outside of this thread is something casually referred to as "dirty method"...sorta what your LFS recommended. I don't think there really is such a think as "dirty method"...really just a name applied to laziness in most posts. I'm not sure there are any problems that can be solved just by overfeeding your tank.

 

[Cscultho]

Ok - this will sound like I am ready to give up the battle all together, but I am committed to battle for a few weeks. But also curious about the ‘reset’ option. While fighting the good fight is noble, one must keep the fallacy of sunk cost in mind.

So here are some questions that I am hoping some would chime in on:
1) what are the prospects of moving sps and fish into a new temp tank without bringing in Dino for the ride?
Perhaps if I cut out my sps colonies (without getting life rock), rinse them really well several times (ie simulating a serial dilution)?
2) what would be the best way to disinfect display tank. If I get rid of rock and sand? Would bleach kill the cysts? Strong solution of hydrogen peroxide? Vinegar? Judo chop? Roundhouse kick to their prorocentrum?

Remove the SB if you havent already done so. it worked for my tank which i thought was at a point of not recovering. ive now been able to slowly add back the SB without issue.

 

[tenurepro]

Remove the SB if you havent already done so. it worked for my tank which i thought was at a point of not recovering. ive now been able to slowly add back the SB without issue.

I am in the process of doing that; did you remove it in one shot or do it gradually ? Also, did you siphons it out of the tank or scoop it ?

 

[tenurepro]

I was at the point of doing a full reset not too long ago. I set up another tank in preparation for moving my corals out of my main display. I also set up a 20g as a QT/treatment tank and moved my UV to that to try to eliminate dinos before moving into the new tank. As I pulled corals from my main display, I did diluted peroxide dips 8:1 then 4:1 water:3% peroxide, followed by low salinity dips, 1.010 sg, then 1.008 then even straight DI water followed by 2 - 3 weeks in the QT tank. Even with all this I still ended up with amphidinium and recently found some ostreopsis from cysts that were brought over on the corals. Ostreopsis, Coolia and Prorocentrum were killed by the low salinity dips but not amphidinium or cysts of the others.
From my experience my recommendation would be if you want to do a full reset then completely start over and forget trying to save corals and inverts. There is also the possibility of bringing dinos on the fish from dinos on the slime coat. Freshwater dips and QT may be able to take care of that.

For disinfecting the system and ensuring cysts are killed; some testing was performed on ship ballast water. It took 1,000 ppm free chlorine residual for 24 hours to prevent any cysts from germinating. Hydrogen peroxide was also effective but at stronger doses leaving bleach as the best choice.

On a separate note, if a reset is the path that is decided, how do we then ensure dinos don't take over the system in the future? I bought a couple coral frags from a LFS (they were on consignment) and put them in QT. I collected some samples from the corals and put them under the scope and found Ostreopsis.
The best option seems to be the basis of this thread, establishing a healthy system with the biodiversity to handle the inadvertent introduction of dinos.

I ended up not resetting my system. Instead I upgraded my UV to a larger unit (as a last resort before resetting) which took care of the Ostreopsis, Coolia and Prorocentrum. I was not successful with eliminating amphidinium with elevated phosphates and nitrates and went the Dino-x route for them and suffered losses to corals and inverts.
.

Very helpful info! Curious, did you get a Dino bloom in your temp/qt system for corals? I ask because the dips may have rendered them inactive