Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[bishoptf]

oops

 

[bishoptf]

It isn't completely unheard of for them to persist, but pretty rare. You win a prize or something.

As noted below, I would have to question the quality of the bulb. At $100, they aren't known for quality or longevity although they have worked for many/most of the posts here. A similar wattage from Aqua UV is 4X in price and size.

Could you tell if it ever made a dent in your population?

You are not dosing Amino Acids, are you? Ostreos love those -- at least mine did.

No I am not dosing amino's the only thing I am dosing is All for reef to keep alk, ca etc in step. I have a lot of coralline algae and if I do not dose daily it drops a good bit depending on where my PH falls. I was just dosing Kalk before and no water changes and still had the issues. Yeah understand about the GKM and being cheap but the size is overkill for my DT but it's not working. I do not think it has made a dent in the poputlation, I have been running it for weeks now, again mine are not coating everything but the floss gets pretty covered after 2 days. I can try to go with a blackout but Ive tried just ambient lights for 2-3 days and tank looks great but they just come back.

I can get yet another UV but really starting to wonder if that is going to do the trick, like I keep burning money. I have started dosing silca last couple of weeks and keeping it close to 2ppm and I can tell its working, I see it on the glass but no real change in the dinos.

On another note, my son passed his checkride couple weeks back, hope your flying is going well.

 

[taricha]

if 18w is not enough to kill dinos, won't be eneugh in a 20 liters tank or in a 200 liters tank.

but the gallons * watt still doesn't make sense to me... you have to burn dinos, and this is regardless the tank size.

Your point of view makes sense....
And yet, that's not what trial and error has shown.
9W UV kills ostreopsis, prorocentrum, etc.... in a small tank.
In large tanks, people find even quality 20 or 30 watt units may not be enough, but adding more units or higher wattage turns the tide against the dinos in those larger systems.

These observations probably mean we need to think about things like accumulated UV damage: maybe some cells aren't 100% killed on the first trip through and need multiple passes. Also maybe thinking in terms of a certain % that goes into the water at night, and what % of those get a trip through UV.

And is the proportion that goes into the water, and the proportion of those that go into the UV, and the proportion of those that are killed - noticeably greater than the reproduction rate for all the cells that weren't affected by UV?

 

[taricha]

I can get yet another UV but really starting to wonder if that is going to do the trick, like I keep burning money. I have started dosing silca last couple of weeks and keeping it close to 2ppm and I can tell its working, I see it on the glass but no real change in the dinos.

I know you've seen me say it before, but if you have ostreopsis that are attaching to filter floss in the water, but UV isn't reducing their numbers, then you can be 100% certain that for some reason (flow, wattage, or bulb functioning) the actual cells are not being sufficiently contacted by the UV.
It's simply not possible that those cells can hop into the water nightly because they are invulnerable to UV or something.

 

[bishoptf]

Your point of view makes sense....
And yet, that's not what trial and error has shown.
9W UV kills ostreopsis, prorocentrum, etc.... in a small tank.
In large tanks, people find even quality 20 or 30 watt units may not be enough, but adding more units or higher wattage turns the tide against the dinos in those larger systems.

These observations probably mean we need to think about things like accumulated UV damage: maybe some cells aren't 100% killed on the first trip through and need multiple passes. Also maybe thinking in terms of a certain % that goes into the water at night, and what % of those get a trip through UV.

And is the proportion that goes into the water, and the proportion of those that go into the UV, and the proportion of those that are killed - noticeably greater than the reproduction rate for all the cells that weren't affected by UV?

Yeah I agree with what you are saying but all I know is my GKM 24w in a 29g dt is not working, I have no way of knowing if the bulb is compromised/working it was a brand new unit. They have a controller box that has a green light that is supposed to indicate if the bulb is working and it is on, yet I still have them in my tank in high numbers since the congregate on my floss....

gurmble grumble...

 

[bishoptf]

I know you've seen me say it before, but if you have ostreopsis that are attaching to filter floss in the water, but UV isn't reducing their numbers, then you can be 100% certain that for some reason (flow, wattage, or bulb functioning) the actual cells are not being sufficiently contacted by the UV.
It's simply not possible that those cells can hop into the water nightly because they are invulnerable to UV or something.

I agree with what you are saying but the last time I was using smaller units and went out and bought the 24w version...and its doing the same thing...

So try yet another UV or swap bulbs...GKM controls the flow through there UV ballasts, the 24w is limited to 70gph...at this point I'm just not sure what to try next.

 

[wtdenk]

Has anyone tried/had success with amphidinium dinos by adding a thin layer of real ocean sand on top your current sand bed? Do they just take over the new sand as well or could the true ocean sand have the correct natural bacteria to fend them off?

 

[ScottB]

I agree with what you are saying but the last time I was using smaller units and went out and bought the 24w version...and its doing the same thing...

So try yet another UV or swap bulbs...GKM controls the flow through there UV ballasts, the 24w is limited to 70gph...at this point I'm just not sure what to try next.

At 3X per hour, the flow should be OK. If anything, I would try pinching the flow to increase the contact time. Need to be creative about how to do that. Dumb question: you are rinsing (killing) the dino coated filter floss each evening, right?

Congratulations to your son (and you) on the checkride! That is a very big deal indeed. I will solo next week. I got weather cancels the last three days in a row.

 

[bishoptf]

At 3X per hour, the flow should be OK. If anything, I would try pinching the flow to increase the contact time. Need to be creative about how to do that. Dumb question: you are rinsing (killing) the dino coated filter floss each evening, right?

Congratulations to your son (and you) on the checkride! That is a very big deal indeed. I will solo next week. I got weather cancels the last three days in a row.

Yeah ive tried multiple UV units I have been looking at other units but I just do not understand why the UV is not doing the job 24w should be plenty, the other units were 10w units. Yeah I am rinsing daily or almost daily, I usually rinse them when I see that they build up which is usually every other day. Just the crazyiest thing since they are supposedly easy overcome with UV, I know I have read that GKM have worked in the past and this was a new unit, no way I can really tell if the bulb is working properly though, they just have a light on the controller signifying that its got continuity, thats my guess anyway, and it is lit up.

Off topic

Thanks took him about a year to work through it, when college started up last fall was much harder for him to get things done with weather, school and work so he finished things up this summer. His plan is to be a professional pilot, he will be going to SIU this fall for the last 2 years and go through their aviation flight program - https://aviation.siu.edu/management/ they have a really nice setup. One thing I will tell you that I saw with him is to not push things, I know everyone wants to do it in as few of hours as you can due to costs but you want to build confidence and proficiency so when you do solo and xc flights your confident and more comfortable in the plane. If that takes more hours to get there then so be it, everyone is different but at least for me you want to be at a point where you are very comfortable with everything going on. Shoot me a PM if you ever want to talk aviation stuff, my undergrad is actually in aerospace so love talking about it etc.

 

[LOVEROCK]

Yeah ive tried multiple UV units I have been looking at other units but I just do not understand why the UV is not doing the job 24w should be plenty, the other units were 10w units. Yeah I am rinsing daily or almost daily, I usually rinse them when I see that they build up which is usually every other day. Just the crazyiest thing since they are supposedly easy overcome with UV, I know I have read that GKM have worked in the past and this was a new unit, no way I can really tell if the bulb is working properly though, they just have a light on the controller signifying that its got continuity, thats my guess anyway, and it is lit up.

Off topic

Thanks took him about a year to work through it, when college started up last fall was much harder for him to get things done with weather, school and work so he finished things up this summer. His plan is to be a professional pilot, he will be going to SIU this fall for the last 2 years and go through their aviation flight program - https://aviation.siu.edu/management/ they have a really nice setup. One thing I will tell you that I saw with him is to not push things, I know everyone wants to do it in as few of hours as you can due to costs but you want to build confidence and proficiency so when you do solo and xc flights your confident and more comfortable in plane. If that takes more hours to get there then so be it, everyone is different but at least for me you want to be at a point where you are very comfortable with everything going on. Shoot me a PM if you ever want to talk aviation stuff, my undergrad is actually in aerospace so love talking about it etc.

I had oster recently and had a 25 watt uv on a 60 frag tank , for a month it did no damage , someone suggested to lights off for 3 days , oddly enough it worked , it was like they were refusing to go water born

 

[taricha]

no way I can really tell if the bulb is working properly though, they just have a light on the controller signifying that its got continuity,

You could carefully drill a tiny hole in the outer plastic case and plug it with superglue etc.
It'd let you see the light from the bulb but essentially block all the uv.

 

[bishoptf]

You could carefully drill a tiny hole in the outer plastic case and plug it with superglue etc.
It'd let you see the light from the bulb but essentially block all the uv.

Yeah I knew my smaller units were working since I could verify the bulb and they had the same issues, just wondering if I need to do a total blackout which I have never done. I have done multiple days without the lights on, just ambient but never a total blackout. I assumed that if I see them collecting on the floss then they are in the water column and for some reason the UV is just not doing the job.

I am kind of in a predicament right now since I started a fluconazole treatment over a week ago for bryopsis, sigh my live rock has been a box of chocolates and just keeps popping up issues, lol. The bryopsis is really taking a hit and I want to go at least another week before doing a blackout etc to give it more time. I also have been dosing some silica and keeping it up around 1-2ppm. The one other thing that has been odd is somthing is still sinking phosphate, I've gotten it better but keeping it at .1 has been work, so I am still dosing po4 and trying to keep that elevated, I think that has been part of the issue so hoping that will help things also.

Thanks for the help and suggestions..

 

[ScottB]

Yeah I knew my smaller units were working since I could verify the bulb and they had the same issues, just wondering if I need to do a total blackout which I have never done. I have done multiple days without the lights on, just ambient but never a total blackout. I assumed that if I see them collecting on the floss then they are in the water column and for some reason the UV is just not doing the job.

I am kind of in a predicament right now since I started a fluconazole treatment over a week ago for bryopsis, sigh my live rock has been a box of chocolates and just keeps popping up issues, lol. The bryopsis is really taking a hit and I want to go at least another week before doing a blackout etc to give it more time. I also have been dosing some silica and keeping it up around 1-2ppm. The one other thing that has been odd is somthing is still sinking phosphate, I've gotten it better but keeping it at .1 has been work, so I am still dosing po4 and trying to keep that elevated, I think that has been part of the issue so hoping that will help things also.

Thanks for the help and suggestions..

I feel like I have read often that dosing silicate causes Hanna Phosphate ULR to read HIGH, so I find this somewhat surprising. I don't have personal experience but this seemed a consistent pattern. Ring a bell @taricha ?

 

[iLMaRiO]

i can confirm. when dosing silicates, i had po4 not Reading properly, blinking out of scale

 

[bishoptf]

I feel like I have read often that dosing silicate causes Hanna Phosphate ULR to read HIGH, so I find this somewhat surprising. I don't have personal experience but this seemed a consistent pattern. Ring a bell @taricha ?

Yeah I saw that in some threads, I am not dosing silicate super high just trying to keep it in the 1-2ppm range. My po4 is not super high testing, yesterday was a .11 and I am trying to keep it around that level. Still debating whether to get another UV unit or not so just moving sideways right now....

 

[taricha]

I feel like I have read often that dosing silicate causes Hanna Phosphate ULR to read HIGH, so I find this somewhat surprising. I don't have personal experience but this seemed a consistent pattern. Ring a bell @taricha ?

Over-discussed. Si has to be really high (SiO2 > 2ppm) for the positive interference to start. That is, to even be detectable with the ULR P meter, so it's pretty rare in reality.

Dosing Si can and usually does...increase diatom growth, which could lower PO4.

Yeah I saw that in some threads, I am not dosing silicate super high just trying to keep it in the 1-2ppm range. My po4 is not super high testing, yesterday was a .11 and I am trying to keep it around that level. Still debating whether to get another UV unit or not so just moving sideways right now....

since you haven't done a blackout yet, and your UV seems to not be doing anything, I'd do a blackout and then figure out how to go forward with (another) new UV or not.

 

[bishoptf]

Over-discussed. Si has to be really high (SiO2 > 2ppm) for the positive interference to start. That is, to even be detectable with the ULR P meter, so it's pretty rare in reality.

Dosing Si can and usually does

since you haven't done a blackout yet, and your UV seems to not be doing anything, I'd do a blackout and then figure out how to go forward with (another) new UV or not.

Understand, but having had three different UV units kind of gun shy to purchase yet another unit, the smaller units while on 10w I did verify that the UV lamp was working and the flow was pretty slow through the unit so that is why I am wondering if there is more to it. Like I said I still in the middle of a fluconazole treatment and was thinking of getting through that before doing a black out, but how many days do I need to do a black out for. I only have a couple of leathers and know they will not be happy but really was wanting to avoid the whole black out thing.

 

[ScottB]

Understand, but having had three different UV units kind of gun shy to purchase yet another unit, the smaller units while on 10w I did verify that the UV lamp was working and the flow was pretty slow through the unit so that is why I am wondering if there is more to it. Like I said I still in the middle of a fluconazole treatment and was thinking of getting through that before doing a black out, but how many days do I need to do a black out for. I only have a couple of leathers and know they will not be happy but really was wanting to avoid the whole black out thing.

Yeah, I would finish the Fluc treatment first. That stuff needs full light to work on the bryopsis. Any shaded parts won't die off and will return.

When you are ready, maybe slap all three UV on there and black it out for 36 hours or so. Get those critters on the move.

 

[Soey]

Hello. Is this somewhere where i can send images of my dinos under a microscope? Im not sure what species they are.

 

[gbru316]

I posted my recent experience in a different thread, but figured it wouldn't hurt to add to the "official" thread.

Background: several month old 40 breeder with sump (55g total volume) driven to 0 po4 by overzealous GFO use caused a breakout of prorocentrum dinoflagellates (confirmed via microscope). I still have prorocentrum in my tank but they're only visible on slide samples now.

Total time fighting dinos (once identified): 1 week

Steps taken:
1. Immediately removed GFO
2. Increased Po4 to 0.08 (used Brightwell Neophos) and tested daily to keep it > 0.05
3. Decreased light intensity
4. Shifted color temp to blue
5. Stopped adding all coral food/aminos/vitamins
6. Added UV (25W green machine in-tank)
7. Daily aquascape scrubs with toothbrush (in-tank)
8. Added 4 bottles of Algae Barn Eco Pods
9. Started dosing phytoplankton nightly
10. 36 hour blackout
11. Dino-X per label instructions

Steps 1-10 all seemed to help a bit to eliminate the dino fur on my rocks and sand. But it wasn't until I dosed Dino-X that they disappeared, literally overnight.


I treated twice more just to be safe, for a total of 3 doses. I also kept the UV running for a few days. It's been a week since I've seen any sign of them with the naked eye. I did not notice any impact to other livestock.