Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[ScottB]

i think some cyanos are coming after dinos started to reduce . whats the protocol to get rid of cyanos after dinos?

Cyano after dinos is almost a given. They are the next surface competitor. Over time, they should be displaced by bacterial film, film algae, coralline, etc etc. It can take a good long time. Just keep up with manual removal.

Often people dump in some Chemiclean which will certainly kill the cyano, but then you are often back to dinos again.

 

[saltyhog]

Agree with Scott! I would also add, balancing your NO3 and PO4 goes a long way towards getting rid of cyano after dinos. I don't mean Redfield numbers but about a 100:1 ratio (ex 10 nitrate:0.1 phosphate). This has worked for me.

 

[ScottB]

Agree with Scott! I would also add, balancing your NO3 and PO4 goes a long way towards getting rid of cyano after dinos. I don't mean Redfield numbers but about a 100:1 ratio (ex 10 nitrate:0.1 phosphate). This has worked for me.

This is also my experience. I struggle to keep some nitrates around. If I slow down on dumping in buckets of food the nitrates go down around 2-4 and PO4 stays .1 and poof. There come the cyano.

 

[saltyhog]

I had a tank like that once. I ended up just dosing sodium nitrate (reagent grade off of Amazon). Now I'd probably just use the Brightwell Neonitrate.

 

[iLMaRiO]

Agree with Scott! I would also add, balancing your NO3 and PO4 goes a long way towards getting rid of cyano after dinos. I don't mean Redfield numbers but about a 100:1 ratio (ex 10 nitrate:0.1 phosphate). This has worked for me.

as i'm "trying" to follow the triton method, I think the No4/Po4 ratio to have is calculated by Triton , i don't think they show a single ratio like 100:1 , they also consider the carbon value

 

[mikeytrw]

Hello!

Hoping for an ID confirm on this:



To my eye, it's Amphidinium Carterae - i.e. Small Cell Amphidinium. It's a cheapy crappy microscope with a white LED light source which is why they all look a bit disco coloured, it does however highlight their individual features quite well.

I've ordered SpongeExcel and a Salifert phosphate kit as apparently I can't monitor PO4 with my Hanna while dosing silicates. I've been dosing NO3 and am awaiting delivery of NeoPhos to get the PO4 in line.

Can I ask what the ideal target NO3 and PO4 levels to hold are? Once I have that I can start the Si calculations to get to the 1:1 N:Si ratio.

Current levels are 4.1ppm and 0ppm NO3: PO4 respectively. My PO4 has been dropping and hit zero today.

One more thing...what's the common recent consensus on these guys migrating to water column in dark hours? they seem to be less common so not as much info/guides dedicated as apposed to their bigger brother. Is it worth blowing some bucks on a UV setup for small cell Amphi?

 

[ScottB]

Hello!

Hoping for an ID confirm on this:



To my eye, it's Amphidinium Carterae - i.e. Small Cell Amphidinium. It's a cheapy crappy microscope with a white LED light source which is why they all look a bit disco coloured, it does however highlight their individual features quite well.

I've ordered SpongeExcel and a Salifert phosphate kit as apparently I can't monitor PO4 with my Hanna while dosing silicates. I've been dosing NO3 and am awaiting delivery of NeoPhos to get the PO4 in line.

Can I ask what the ideal target NO3 and PO4 levels to hold are? Once I have that I can start the Si calculations to get to the 1:1 N:Si ratio.

Current levels are 4.1ppm and 0ppm NO3: PO4 respectively. My PO4 has been dropping and hit zero today.

One more thing...what's the common recent consensus on these guys migrating to water column in dark hours? they seem to be less common so not as much info/guides dedicated as apposed to their bigger brother. Is it worth blowing some bucks on a UV setup for small cell Amphi?

I would hold off on dosing nitrates until you can get a solid PO4 measure going consistently -- if you have corals.

Keeping 10/.1 for NO3/PO4 is fine.

I would go head and spring for a UV. I know they are expensive, but they are helpful to have on hand for dinos. Can help manage fish parasite populations as well. 1 watt / three gallons; ignore manufacturer's sizing guidance.

It can be a little challenging to get the sand based dinos swimming for the UV to be effective. A blackout may be needed.

 

[mikeytrw]

I would hold off on dosing nitrates until you can get a solid PO4 measure going consistently -- if you have corals.

Keeping 10/.1 for NO3/PO4 is fine.

I would go head and spring for a UV. I know they are expensive, but they are helpful to have on hand for dinos. Can help manage fish parasite populations as well. 1 watt / three gallons; ignore manufacturer's sizing guidance.

It can be a little challenging to get the sand based dinos swimming for the UV to be effective. A blackout may be needed.

Thank you. Have just ordered a UV etc. Will update in a week.

 

[saltyhog]

Hello!

Hoping for an ID confirm on this:



To my eye, it's Amphidinium Carterae - i.e. Small Cell Amphidinium. It's a cheapy crappy microscope with a white LED light source which is why they all look a bit disco coloured, it does however highlight their individual features quite well.

I've ordered SpongeExcel and a Salifert phosphate kit as apparently I can't monitor PO4 with my Hanna while dosing silicates. I've been dosing NO3 and am awaiting delivery of NeoPhos to get the PO4 in line.

Can I ask what the ideal target NO3 and PO4 levels to hold are? Once I have that I can start the Si calculations to get to the 1:1 N:Si ratio.

Current levels are 4.1ppm and 0ppm NO3: PO4 respectively. My PO4 has been dropping and hit zero today.

One more thing...what's the common recent consensus on these guys migrating to water column in dark hours? they seem to be less common so not as much info/guides dedicated as apposed to their bigger brother. Is it worth blowing some bucks on a UV setup for small cell Amphi?

Definitely Small Cell. Unless your tank is really small, I would get reagent grade water glass to dose silicates. Much easier and less expensive. I think most people under dose when trying to treat dinos. I dose 2ppm daily which with water glass is about 0.2 ml/15 gallons of water volume. The good thing is silicate is not toxic at even very high over doses (I've seen over doses of great than 100 ppm with no negative consequences). Dilute the water glass in about 250 cc of RO/DI water and pour it slowly in to a high flow area. It's very alkaline and just dumping it in will result in precipitation on a grand scale.

I'm not a big proponent of UV for SCA. Tried it many times and had no success. UV could have a negative impact on diatoms and phyto if you dose it for SCA (which I recommend).

I would not worry about trying to match silicate levels with NO3 levels. I would aim NO3 at 5-10 and PO4 at 0.05-0.1.2.

 

[OscarHaglund]

Is this early stage dinos? I have a few small patches that started to appear today and seem to have vanished now with lights out.

This is a very new coral QT tank that I started with lights and a seeded live rock and dry rock a month back.
Nutrient levels are high, last measurement 2 days ago 19 ppm nitrate and 0.14 ppm phosphate according to hanna hr nitrate and ulr phosphate checkers.
Showed up less than a week after adding chaeto and started feeding aminos to corals.
If its dinos, is there anything i can do to nip it in the bud? UV seems difficult to attach to this small system and im reluctant to buy a super small hob uv just for this tank (that would also not be applicable for the DT)

 

[Smite]

Hey guys,
*I need to get a better microscope. My kid has a little toy one. I'll say i was suprised to see something, ha!

I have this constant dusting on my sandbed since starting a flux treatment. I'm guessing the treatment allowed for the dino's to have a reason to populate. I'm hoping these are good enough to help identify the type I'm dealing with.

So far they are only really in the sand but I did notice a few brown dustings on some colonies I lost at teh beginning of the year. Basically on areas where the bryopsis died off and there was fresh skeleton to grab a hold of.
"400x" not sure how accurate that is

150x Lots of movement.

vidoes usually don't work and it's pretty poor but let me know if anyone has a good guess on it. Not sure if that would be the movement of amphidinium or not?

How it appears in the tank

It's:
- starting to mat a bit. Almost like light cyano but brown ( i had cyano and it was red under this spectrum)
- very minimal bubbles if any


I've "stopped" the flux treatment. I added the skimmer cup back and some brightwell carbon. I've been dosing biodigest bacteria daily. I turned my 57w UV back on, fed by a sicce 1.5. It is recirculating in the sump -I know that's not the most efficient. I have some nitrates but low, 2.5-5ppm. phosphates just about always detect 0.0 on my HI713. I need to get the ULR. I dose live phytoplankton morning and night. My conch don't seem to touch it much.

Thanks for any input. If I need to get some better shots video I'll do my best.

 

[Moonwrassler]

Need ID help on what I fear is our first outbreak of Dinos.
Tank history: 60 gal AIO, going for about 10 weeks. Started with live rock and sand from previous tank, plus some new dry rock. have some Cyano that was feeding snails, did some baster cleans before water changes, not stressed about it. Moved three fish and cleaner shrimp from old tank 3 weeks ago, everyone eating and happy. Added a diamond goby one week later, eating well and happy. Added LPS and softies 2 weeks ago, and they seem happy and growing. Started feeding phytoplankton every other day or so.
Nitrate has been at 20 for three weeks, and so I thought it might be good to get a bit of chaeto going in the back sump chamber. Went to LFS and got a ball of it, dunked it in reef dip for 40 mins, and dropped it into sump chamber. Fuge light was delayed in shipping, so the chaeto had to survive for 4 days without a grow light. (Light arrived yesterday and is now running on night schedule.)
This afternoon I see brown strings floating off of rock, some on top of rock closest to light (4-bulb T5) and some off rocks lower in tank. We just did a WC two days ago and sand was weirdly brown/dirty looking already. Also, pulsing Xenia has been sulking for past week—I thought maybe not enough flow, but seeing brown algae scumminess on some of the branches, so now fearing that was the first sign of trouble)
Microscope pics below. I fear Osteopsis.
PO4 is 0.03, NO3 is 20.
Can you confirm that this is Osteopsis?
Need to dose phosphate, right?
Will look into UV or filter sheets approach.
Other details:
Water is RO/DI, TDS 0, Reef Crystals salt
Salinity 1.026 and stable
pH was at 8.3 but crept up to 8.6. Reduced with sodium bisulfate to 8.2
Alk 9.3 (fluctuating from 9.6 to 8.6 last week, restored with dosing over past 2 days)
CA 440
Mg 1440
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0

Any other tips or advice welcome.
First pic is 250x, second is 1000x.

 

[saltyhog]

Hey guys,
*I need to get a better microscope. My kid has a little toy one. I'll say i was suprised to see something, ha!

I have this constant dusting on my sandbed since starting a flux treatment. I'm guessing the treatment allowed for the dino's to have a reason to populate. I'm hoping these are good enough to help identify the type I'm dealing with.

So far they are only really in the sand but I did notice a few brown dustings on some colonies I lost at teh beginning of the year. Basically on areas where the bryopsis died off and there was fresh skeleton to grab a hold of.
"400x" not sure how accurate that is

150x Lots of movement.

vidoes usually don't work and it's pretty poor but let me know if anyone has a good guess on it. Not sure if that would be the movement of amphidinium or not?

How it appears in the tank

It's:
- starting to mat a bit. Almost like light cyano but brown ( i had cyano and it was red under this spectrum)
- very minimal bubbles if any


I've "stopped" the flux treatment. I added the skimmer cup back and some brightwell carbon. I've been dosing biodigest bacteria daily. I turned my 57w UV back on, fed by a sicce 1.5. It is recirculating in the sump -I know that's not the most efficient. I have some nitrates but low, 2.5-5ppm. phosphates just about always detect 0.0 on my HI713. I need to get the ULR. I dose live phytoplankton morning and night. My conch don't seem to touch it much.

Thanks for any input. If I need to get some better shots video I'll do my best.

Good enough.....that's Coolia. UV is the best treatment but you have to get your nutrients up if you want it to be a lasting fix.

UV needs to be 1 watt/3 gallons display volume. Plumb it with a dedicated pump from and back to the display (don't panic, it's temporary) with the pump flowing about 2x display volume/hour. Plumbing it in the sump as you have is not likely to get the job done. I found it helpful with Coolia to blow them off with a turkey baster right before lights out.

I would try to keep the NO3 about 5-10 and the PO4 about 0.05-0.1.

 

[saltyhog]

Need ID help on what I fear is our first outbreak of Dinos.
Tank history: 60 gal AIO, going for about 10 weeks. Started with live rock and sand from previous tank, plus some new dry rock. have some Cyano that was feeding snails, did some baster cleans before water changes, not stressed about it. Moved three fish and cleaner shrimp from old tank 3 weeks ago, everyone eating and happy. Added a diamond goby one week later, eating well and happy. Added LPS and softies 2 weeks ago, and they seem happy and growing. Started feeding phytoplankton every other day or so.
Nitrate has been at 20 for three weeks, and so I thought it might be good to get a bit of chaeto going in the back sump chamber. Went to LFS and got a ball of it, dunked it in reef dip for 40 mins, and dropped it into sump chamber. Fuge light was delayed in shipping, so the chaeto had to survive for 4 days without a grow light. (Light arrived yesterday and is now running on night schedule.)
This afternoon I see brown strings floating off of rock, some on top of rock closest to light (4-bulb T5) and some off rocks lower in tank. We just did a WC two days ago and sand was weirdly brown/dirty looking already. Also, pulsing Xenia has been sulking for past week—I thought maybe not enough flow, but seeing brown algae scumminess on some of the branches, so now fearing that was the first sign of trouble)
Microscope pics below. I fear Osteopsis.
PO4 is 0.03, NO3 is 20.
Can you confirm that this is Osteopsis?
Need to dose phosphate, right?
Will look into UV or filter sheets approach.
Other details:
Water is RO/DI, TDS 0, Reef Crystals salt
Salinity 1.026 and stable
pH was at 8.3 but crept up to 8.6. Reduced with sodium bisulfate to 8.2
Alk 9.3 (fluctuating from 9.6 to 8.6 last week, restored with dosing over past 2 days)
CA 440
Mg 1440
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0

Any other tips or advice welcome.
First pic is 250x, second is 1000x.

That is Ostreopsis. It's the most toxic of dinos but about the easiest to treat.

You will need a UV unit about 1 watt/3 gallons tank volume. Plumb it temporarily from the display back to the display with a dedicated pump. It should be running about 2 x the tank volume/ hour. This is temporary so don't worry about appearance right now.

I would raise that PO4 a little as it's dangerously close to zero (when taking in to consideration most test kits accuracy ranges). Ok to lower the NO3 a little but not that important right now.

 

[saltyhog]

Hey guys,
*I need to get a better microscope. My kid has a little toy one. I'll say i was suprised to see something, ha!

I have this constant dusting on my sandbed since starting a flux treatment. I'm guessing the treatment allowed for the dino's to have a reason to populate. I'm hoping these are good enough to help identify the type I'm dealing with.

So far they are only really in the sand but I did notice a few brown dustings on some colonies I lost at teh beginning of the year. Basically on areas where the bryopsis died off and there was fresh skeleton to grab a hold of.
"400x" not sure how accurate that is

150x Lots of movement.

vidoes usually don't work and it's pretty poor but let me know if anyone has a good guess on it. Not sure if that would be the movement of amphidinium or not?

How it appears in the tank

It's:
- starting to mat a bit. Almost like light cyano but brown ( i had cyano and it was red under this spectrum)
- very minimal bubbles if any


I've "stopped" the flux treatment. I added the skimmer cup back and some brightwell carbon. I've been dosing biodigest bacteria daily. I turned my 57w UV back on, fed by a sicce 1.5. It is recirculating in the sump -I know that's not the most efficient. I have some nitrates but low, 2.5-5ppm. phosphates just about always detect 0.0 on my HI713. I need to get the ULR. I dose live phytoplankton morning and night. My conch don't seem to touch it much.

Thanks for any input. If I need to get some better shots video I'll do my best.

Did your samples come from the sand or from the rock? If only from the rock, sample the sand.....wanna make sure you don't have two types of dinos.

 

[Smite]

Did your samples come from the sand or from the rock? If only from the rock, sample the sand.....wanna make sure you don't have two types of dinos.

Those came only from the sand. I just noticed a dusting a little up higher on some rock. I'll try and get some of that as well.

A buddy believes they are coolia as well, so thanks for confirming!

I'm working on bringing both no3 and po4 up. It sounds like my 57w is close to enough. I'll start by plumbing that into the display and see how it goes. I was planning on siphoning them back daily into the sump before lights out but might as well just move the UV and stir. Sounds like my 1.5 sicces is about right for my 210g display, maybe a little under as well.

 

[saltyhog]

Those came only from the sand. I just noticed a dusting a little up higher on some rock. I'll try and get some of that as well.

A buddy believes they are coolia as well, so thanks for confirming!

I'm working on bringing both no3 and po4 up. It sounds like my 57w is close to enough. I'll start by plumbing that into the display and see how it goes. I was planning on siphoning them back daily into the sump before lights out but might as well just move the UV and stir. Sounds like my 1.5 sicces is about right for my 210g display, maybe a little under as well.

Is that unit an Aqua UV? It's a little small for your tank (for dinos) and Coolia can be a little more demanding than Ostreopsis IME. We'll see. If you don't see improvement pretty quickly, consider a second UV and plumb them in series.

 

[Moonwrassler]

That is Ostreopsis. It's the most toxic of dinos but about the easiest to treat.

You will need a UV unit about 1 watt/3 gallons tank volume. Plumb it temporarily from the display back to the display with a dedicated pump. It should be running about 2 x the tank volume/ hour. This is temporary so don't worry about appearance right now.

I would raise that PO4 a little as it's dangerously close to zero (when taking in to consideration most test kits accuracy ranges). Ok to lower the NO3 a little but not that important right now.

Many thanks.
Just for my planning, is this a 2 week endeavor? A month or two?
What's the "test" to identify if we've succeeded?
Thanks again.

 

[Smite]

Is that unit an Aqua UV? It's a little small for your tank (for dinos) and Coolia can be a little more demanding than Ostreopsis IME. We'll see. If you don't see improvement pretty quickly, consider a second UV and plumb them in series.

yes that's an AquaUV.

I'll give that a go if this doesn't work.

I've got a Vecton I was running on my 80g. I think it's 24w if I remember right. That'd get me in the ballpark.

 

[mikeytrw]

Definitely Small Cell. Unless your tank is really small, I would get reagent grade water glass to dose silicates. Much easier and less expensive. I think most people under dose when trying to treat dinos. I dose 2ppm daily which with water glass is about 0.2 ml/15 gallons of water volume. The good thing is silicate is not toxic at even very high over doses (I've seen over doses of great than 100 ppm with no negative consequences). Dilute the water glass in about 250 cc of RO/DI water and pour it slowly in to a high flow area. It's very alkaline and just dumping it in will result in precipitation on a grand scale.

I'm not a big proponent of UV for SCA. Tried it many times and had no success. UV could have a negative impact on diatoms and phyto if you dose it for SCA (which I recommend).

I would not worry about trying to match silicate levels with NO3 levels. I would aim NO3 at 5-10 and PO4 at 0.05-0.1.2.

OK So I've been dosing SpongeExcel, although my test results don't seem to reflect the dose im calculating. I'll keep dosing until it gets to 2ppm SiO2.

Can I check though, I'm worried my Ph is climbing as I dose, it's normally rock solid at 8 but has crept up - I suspect due to dosing alkaline Silicate. Should I dose distilled white vinegar to compensate?

I'm going to order water glass as you recommend because this bottle of SpongeExcel wont last more than a week or two. I have a reefer 250 btw.