Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?
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Unfortunately, uv etc. may not always help. I think I may have Amphidinium (Large-Cell) and in a good guide to different dino types it says,
"Due to staying in/under sand, less susceptible to chemical kill methods than other species, and cannot be targeted by UV or other water filtration methods. Unharmed by extended darkness and metronidazole (antibiotic that
affects chloroplast). May be susceptible to grazing (snails, amphipods etc) due to low toxins.
Least harmful type of dino, so aggressive “treatments” kill much more livestock than the dinos."
There are plenty of posts about people spending months trying to get rid of them.
Depressing.
Just seems the difference is to use a UV or not, I guess I’m coming at this from a nano tank owner point of view, time I buy a microscope I could have bought a UV unit, not the case with a larger system.
Just trying to save people some money here…if the dinos go at night buy a uv if not don’t bother? Doesn’t that work?
They don't go away at night, but just don't multiply. If I clean off a patch of sand surface at night it will be clean when the lights come on and covered within a few hours. I have the same tank as you do and put in a uv a few days ago. Hopefully something positive will happen, but nothing so far. Keeping my fingers crossed. The problem I have been having is that they grow so fast that they coat some of my zoas and they stop opening. I have to brush off a few colonies once or twice a day with a makeup brush or they just get more and more covered.
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Sounds exactly like mine, mine can be cleared with scrubbing the rocks and blowing the sand, has to be done quite intensively, over a week or two, letting your nutrients go up helps too.
Mine haven’t totally gone around 90% has, a uv may help finish them off.
Nice job shooting the video. Any chance you can shoot that with say 400X or some more zoom? First thought is small cell amphid given the speed and mobility. The larger, slower gray ones maybe LC.
In any case, you do have some dinos there. How about nutrients? Test kits for NO3 and PO4? Here are the treatment bullets that apply to ALL species in case you need to start hitting amazon or LFS.
Section 3: Treatment protocols common to ALL dinoflagellate species
- Ensure that the tank always has measurable residual amounts of nitrate and phosphate. Any nitrate test kit will do, but you need Hanna ULR for phosphate. Target roughly 10/.1. If you are 0 on phosphates, be prepared to dose harder than you can imagine. I dosed 2 liters of DIY before I could keep a residual reading. It binds to your rock and sand. Stock up on Hanna reagents!
- It is important to FIRST dose up PO4 to a stable level. Adding nitrate to a depleted tank will hammer your PO4 and stress/kill a lot of coral.
- Dose a nitrate and/or phosphate solution as necessary. Test almost daily -- at least initially -- if you are deficient.
- If your dinos are presently based in the sand, it is recommended that you dose silicates to restore competitive diatom populations. SpongeExcel is the most common source used. Detailed dosing instructions here.
- Avoid water changes unless it is an emergency. Dinos do seem to deplete certain traces. For me it was potassium, iron and Iodine. You will get a mini bloom with a water change. Also, it removes nutrients.
- Stop any amino acid dosing. Same goes for particulate coral foods. The dino mucus webs just grab it all anyway as their food source. It is also fine to feed the fish more. Fish waste is an ideal food source for competing microorganisms. Your tank needs more of those. However do not rely solely on increased feedings to restore NO3 and PO4. Dose!
- Basting off dinos is fine, but avoid "deep cleanings". We do these things to remove films and algae, but we need that population to recover. This is a common cause of relapse.
- If you are dosing 2-part or CaRx, watch your alkalinity. My consumption collapsed during (ostreopsis) outbreaks but rebounded shortly after.
- Higher pH is better than lower pH. I don't know the mechanics of why, but the pattern was unmistakable. I know it helps rebuild coralline. Open some windows when you can.
- Introduce live rock and/or live rubble. Can be ocean sourced or from another established system. If your tank was a dead rock start and youngish, consider this very important as your microbial population may be especially low in count and or variety.
You make a valid point, but there are some other considerations.
Getting a proper ID on your dino(s) determines a few important things:
a) Do I need to (properly) implement UV equipment? Or is that a waste of time & serious money?
b) Do I need to do a blackout of the tank? Or not?
c) Do I need to be concerned with potentially serious toxins? Or not?
d) Should I order and dose some silicates? Or not?
For a nano, the price of a microscope and a UV are nearly the same.
When you start trying to buy a 55 watt and higher, you're bumping $4-500 for something with a decent sleeve, quartz, ballast.
Thanks very much for the assistance and detailed reply. I am just about to cook dinner and will get that video when I am done, but what do you think about the issue of them possibly being Amphidinium (Large-Cell) since they present like those are supposed to? No snot, no bubbles, dusty when blown off, etc. I am wondering since I had seen in a dino guide that
"Due to staying in/under sand, less susceptible to chemical kill methods than other species, and cannot be targeted by UV or other water filtration methods. Unharmed by extended darkness and metronidazole (antibiotic that
affects chloroplast). May be susceptible to grazing (snails, amphipods etc) due to low toxins.
Least harmful type of dino, so aggressive “treatments” kill much more livestock than the dinos."
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Here is a video at 400x. My phosphates have always been right about .01 and my nitrates will sit at about 5, but I have been dosing for nitrates lately and they are at 8.4 today and phosphates are .02
With conviction I can say dose phosphates first and stop dosing nitrates until you get phosphates up to .08 or so. Hanna error is +-.02 and any acropora you have will get start to struggle as PO4 dissipates.
Still looking to me like small cell amphidinium given shape and movement so UV is your friend. @taricha to confirm/correct on identification.
If indeed SC Amphids, you might need a 48 hour blackout to get them moving into the water once your UV is in place.
This section is still WIP but should set you in the right direction (assuming this is SC Amphids)
Section 4: Treatment protocol for Ostreopsis, Prorocentrum, Small Cell Amphidinium & Coolia (The Swimmers!)
Tool #1: A properly sized, placed and paced UV install FOR FIGHTING DINOS looks like this:
- Ignore manufacturers recommended specs for sizing and flow! Their numbers are designed to sterilise/kill soft little parasites, bacteria and water borne algae. Those numbers are not designed to eliminate hard shelled protists sporting body armor.
- 1 watt per 3 gallons of tank volume
- Flow should turn over the tank 1-3 times per hour. The bigger the unit relative to tank size, the faster you can go and vice versa. As long as the bulb stays cool enough, you are not running too slow IMO.
- This should be plumbed directly from the display tank and returning back into the display. I used some PVC so that I could just slap it on the side of the tank, plug it in and go. Here is what that looks like. I know you are thinking it is ugly and unnecessary but it is effective, temporary and easy to add/delete.
- Ensure that the darn thing is running properly. The ballast is good and the bulb is less than 12 months old and hasn't been overheated.
- Baste as frequently as you can so that the dinos pass through the UV.
- To varying degrees, these species go swimming at night. Ostreopsis are the most adventurous of the four and I never needed to do a blackout to get them under control. The other three may require a blackout to get them moving into the water column. Try a two day blackout first to see if that is enough. Wrap the tank in cardboard or black trash bags. Turn off the fuge light if you have one going.
- Blacking out the tank without a proper UV in place is very unlikely to help. Yes, dinos are photosynthetic, but so is the needed competition. When the lights come back up you are back where you started.
If a UV isn't in the budget, or is stuck on a boat in Long Beach, or you just want to go after these guys a little harder, you can affix sheets of filter floss to the sides of the tank like this. Ostreopsis really prefer this surface when placed in a high flow/light area. Wherever your dinos seem to be hanging about is the right place to affix the floss. I used suction cups, zip ties to fasten the floss. Repeated basting of infested surfaces is encouraged. Rinse the floss each evening (before the lights go down) in fresh water and replace. It is oddly satisfying.
Tool #3: Removing toxins
All four of these have some level of toxin, with Ostreopsis and Proro having pretty high levels. It is a good idea to run carbon and refresh it more frequently than usual. PSA: IF ANYONE IN THE HOUSEHOLD HAS RESPIRATORY ISSUES LIKE ASTHMA, take some added caution. You want to shut off the skimmer to avoid aerosolizing and improve ventilation. Personally, I ate, drank, smoked and bathed in ostreos without any issue, but there have been reports of respiratory distress in the presence of ostreopsis.
Tool #4 Filtering
Our common dinos are rather small measuring 5-40 microns. The mucus can be trapped and contain many/most of the dinos as long as they choose to remain in the mucus. But as you will see on the microscope slide, they roam fairly freely from the mucus. Perhaps a 5 micron sock could be deployed to trap dinos once syphoned out. I don't have much conviction on efficacy, but if you have the energy it cannot hurt.
I have never had any luck with UV for Small Cell. I've always treated them with silicate dosing similar to Large cell. Don't they migrate in to the sand at night like LCA?
What size UV and what size display? how is the UV plumbed? How long since the UV bulb has been changed? Those are questions that I can think of whose answers could answer why UV would be less affective against ostreopsis.
Thanks again for all the details! I have a Green Killing Machine uv sterilizer, so that is on there now. It is only a 13 gal tank, so I just set it to the lowest flow rate. I will keep it covered for 2 days except when testing/dosing.
They are rather clingy to the sand and require some encouragement. Did you try a blackout for a few days?
I just started last night. A few months ago I did a 3 day blackout for something else and it almost killed some of my corals, so I don't want to go more than 2.
Here is a good picture of LC and SC mixed followed by a still from my video. As you said, it does look like it may be both LC and SC. If that is the case, does this mean that if I kill off all of the small cell with UV, etc., the uv and standard treatment resistant large cell will just take it's place?
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Certainly some logic to that theory. Honestly you have a pretty defensive combination there with SC and LC; they are the hardest to solve for. On the bright side, they are on the lower side wrt toxicity, so you got that going for you.Here is a good picture of LC and SC mixed followed by a still from my video. As you said, it does look like it may be both LC and SC. If that is the case, does this mean that if I kill off all of the small cell with UV, etc., the uv and standard treatment resistant large cell will just take it's place?
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I agree with @saltyhog that silica dosing will be needed to build up some competitor organism populations. There really are no downsides to dosing silicates. You already have some diatoms (earlier photos).
Do you have an LFS where you might be able to grab some grunge or rubble out of a reef system?
Is the rubble for silica? It would be a huge pain, but since it is only a 13 gal tank, if it seems likely that I will be dealing with LC, I might take out the rock and dip it with 50% h2o2 (I have almost all softies) and put that in a qt tank, wash the sand and tank in rodi and reassemble. I could even rinse the bio media in fresh water and add bottled bacteria. I don't have any fish right now, so I'm not too concerned about biological filtration. How does that sound? I realize any competitors would be gone too. Also, what if I only get 98% of it? Is it one of those things where it will come back right away?
Yes, but the SC was back within 24 hours of turning the lights back on.
No the rubble from an established tank is to increase biodiversity. Silicates are easy/inexpensive to dose with waterglass.
I've seen many (and tried it myself) try breaking down their tanks and starting over only to end right back where they started. IMO, dinos are in or will get in every tank....it's only when they have a significant advantage/no competition that they bloom. I doubt you could kill all of them and if you don't they would little to no competition.
Scott may disagree but that has been my experience.
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