Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[saltyhog]

This is not what I’ve read in other prorocentrum threads. UV is being recommended because they migrate into the water column at night.

Not saying you are wrong.

If you saw that about prorocentrum they were incorrect. Could you link me to where you read that?

Let's tag @taricha who is probably the best source of dino information I know of and hear what he thinks.

 

[Tuffloud1]

If you saw that about prorocentrum they were incorrect. Could you link me to where you read that?

Let's tag @taricha who is probably the best source of dino information I know of and hear what he thinks.

Dinos: Prorocentrum - Let's beat this!

Tested my water again to ensure nutrients stay high. They do not seem to have budged from yesterday. I can only assume that reducing the photo period on my fuge had something to do with that. I "swept" the sand this morning to get the dinos into the water column. This also lets me see how...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[dvgyfresh]

I have been battling a bad case of dinos for about 10 days. A log can been seen in my build thread. I recently (past 3-4 days) have got my nitrate and phosphates up to decent levels (2-4 no3 and .01 - .05 phos) and started dosing Microbacter 7. Tonight for the first time I noticed something I've never seen before in the attached picture. It's a pretty bright orange/bronze layer on the rocks under blue lights. Anyone know what this is?

The orange is dying coraline algae

 

[saltyhog]

Dinos: Prorocentrum - Let's beat this!

Tested my water again to ensure nutrients stay high. They do not seem to have budged from yesterday. I can only assume that reducing the photo period on my fuge had something to do with that. I "swept" the sand this morning to get the dinos into the water column. This also lets me see how...

www.reef2reef.com

@ScottB is very knowledgeable about dinos. However, treating prorocentrum with UV hasn't ever worked for me or anyone I know. This post was over a year ago. Hopefully he will see this post and comment if he still thinks UV is viable for prorocentrum. Whatcha think Scott?

 

[Tuffloud1]

@ScottB is very knowledgeable about dinos. However, treating prorocentrum with UV hasn't ever worked for me or anyone I know. This post was over a year ago. Hopefully he will see this post and comment if he still thinks UV is viable for prorocentrum. Whatcha think Scott?

@ScottB is an awesome guy. He’s helped me many times, super knowledgeable.

 

[ScottB]

@ScottB is very knowledgeable about dinos. However, treating prorocentrum with UV hasn't ever worked for me or anyone I know. This post was over a year ago. Hopefully he will see this post and comment if he still thinks UV is viable for prorocentrum. Whatcha think Scott?

Thanks Salty. Tagging @Tuffloud1 too.

I did ONCE knock these down personally with a 36hr complete blackout and a large UV with a new bulb. This was an LFS, fish only, filthy tank that was treated previously with Chemiclean so not real comparable. Wet/dry filter to boot. It was though a complete knockout of confirmed prorocentrum, so there is that.

I follow my dinoflagellate mentor @taricha when it comes to proro and small cell amphids. Quoting from his ID Guide:

Swims almost identically to Large Cell Amphidinium, though frequently seen motionless in mucus. Goes into water but needs some change in conditions (like short blackout) to trigger large nightly migration into UV.

I am nearly certain that UV & blackouts have been a successful suppression component for several others. It is always hard to be definitive as to THE single action that worked, as we are all prone to flailing about and pulling multiple levers at the same time, e.g. bacteria, H2O2, temperature, phyto, silicates, Gregorian chant, CBD oils, etc. Add to that the natural complexity of our unique biomes.

If you have not done the blackout @Tuffloud1 I'd say we start there. IIRC you have ample UV wattage, just keep the flow rate low. 2X to 3X per hour will keep the bulb cool and the dinos broiled. If you have heavy ALK/Ca uptake & dosing then watch your ALK measures. Otherwise fish & corals should be fine for the short duration.

If @taricha corrects anything then go with that!

 

[BostonReefer300]

I've been battling dino for the past few weeks and could use some help. I'm not sure of the exact type (microscope is on order), but it was the brown snotty type with bubbles that stayed in the same areas (high on my rocks). Never had it on sand and it grew outwards from the original places---it didn't just disappear and reappear in new places. I did the "dirty tank and leave it alone method" which helped then I added Vibrant a week later and that also seemed to help. The brown snot is gone, but the bubbles are still there on the rocks. I've tried looking closely and I just don't see anything other than the bubbles. Is that a normal part of the eradication process---bubbles are the last thing to disappear? In all my years of reefkeeping, this is my first big problem with dino, so I'm a real newbie with it. Any advice on what to do now would be much appreciated. Keep trucking along as-is and even the bubbles will go away eventually? Or I'm in an emergency situation with a deadly form of dino and I don't realize it? Or something else? Thanks!

 

[taricha]

Y'all are correct, it's just a disagreement of emphasis and perspective.
Prorocentrum is the most stubborn about not going into the water, but it can be coerced into the water.
Very small percentage go up, but this can be increased by turning off lights and turkey-basting the rocks for a day or two.
(I did this in a tiny test tank.)
UV will never be a full fix for Prorocentrum, but it can help bring down cell numbers.
Though if you are going to go through all that trouble to try to shuffle them into the UV, you may find that sucking them out gets you more bang for the buck effort-wise.

 

[Tuffloud1]

Thank you @ScottB and @taricha

My goal is to defeat the dinos and avoid any more Acro losses (my tank is filled with old colonies and encrusting frags).

I currently run my photo period for 12 hours per day, peak for about 6 hours.

The prorocentrum and coolia is covering the glass and chokes out the coralline. I did a scrape down of it 2 weeks ago and it is all back.

The coolia is also in the sand. I was blowing it around with a turkey baster but it all just reappears in the daytime so I stopped doing that after a week of doing it.

I just added another Lifegard Pro Max in a 25 watt going to the 30 gallon frag tank (same system). So I have a 90 and a 25 watt UV running.

So to recap -

How long of a blackout to start with to go easy on acros?

Do you recommend scraping the glass down and basting the sand?


Thank you.

 

[taricha]

If you are going to do a blackout, I'd really try to make it as effective as possible.
If it were me, I'd run the UV, vacuum out any visible brown, then do a couple day blackout.

 

[BostonReefer300]

I've been battling dino for the past few weeks and could use some help. I'm not sure of the exact type (microscope is on order), but it was the brown snotty type with bubbles that stayed in the same areas (high on my rocks). Never had it on sand and it grew outwards from the original places---it didn't just disappear and reappear in new places. I did the "dirty tank and leave it alone method" which helped then I added Vibrant a week later and that also seemed to help. The brown snot is gone, but the bubbles are still there on the rocks. I've tried looking closely and I just don't see anything other than the bubbles. Is that a normal part of the eradication process---bubbles are the last thing to disappear? In all my years of reefkeeping, this is my first big problem with dino, so I'm a real newbie with it. Any advice on what to do now would be much appreciated. Keep trucking along as-is and even the bubbles will go away eventually? Or I'm in an emergency situation with a deadly form of dino and I don't realize it? Or something else? Thanks!

I posted the above in the middle of another exchange in this thread so I think it got lost. @taricha and others, do you think I have Prorocentrum as well given my description? I’m running UV aggressively in addition to the other steps in my first post. I’m definitely confused why I’m now just seeing bubbles and no snot. Anyway, try to vacuum up the bubbles? Many thanks

 

[ReefMan692]

Dirty tank method update.. its been a few days since my last, after initial succsss in seeing reductions I would say today has been the worst day of all.

Increasing nutrients at this point seems to be increasing the dinos.

However, I also lost my UV during maitenance since it was a cheap piece of junk.

Im waiting on new one aquauv should arrive on Monday its 26 watts but claims 150gal.

The next one up is way to large for my system at 57 watt and requires way to much flow so the 26watt seemed to only make sense.

By going dt to dt with it (at first) i think the 26 watt is riding the line of appropriate (dt is 112 gal) best I could do I hope it arrives soon (next week most likely).

Gonna hold off on a 2 day black out for when the UV arrives and go for the double whammy.

Hope tank holds up until then.

 

[ggNoRe]

I'm right here with you 2. Battling dinos for 2 weeks with everything you can imagine to no avail thus yet. Just going to keep on truckin. Right now elevated nutrients through nitrate and phosphate dosing as well as Microbacter 7. Got my film algae growing on the glass again at least. Not sure if I should do a water change this weekend and try to suck some dinos out or just leave it alone.

 

[taricha]

The brown snot is gone, but the bubbles are still there on the rocks. I've tried looking closely and I just don't see anything other than the bubbles.

do you think I have Prorocentrum as well given my description? I’m running UV aggressively in addition to the other steps in my first post. I’m definitely confused why I’m now just seeing bubbles and no snot. Anyway, try to vacuum up the bubbles?

Bubbles alone could mean dinos, diatoms, or cyano. That UV corresponded to disappearance of snotty brown, along with the description means that at least a big chunk of what was there originally was dinos.
Optimist take. You had dinos, after uv you now have mostly diatoms.

 

[BostonReefer300]

Bubbles alone could mean dinos, diatoms, or cyano. That UV corresponded to disappearance of snotty brown, along with the description means that at least a big chunk of what was there originally was dinos.
Optimist take. You had dinos, after uv you now have mostly diatoms.

Thanks @taricha ! I'm going to go with the optimistic view for now just for sanity's sake and hope for the best!

 

[ScottB]

I'm right here with you 2. Battling dinos for 2 weeks with everything you can imagine to no avail thus yet. Just going to keep on truckin. Right now elevated nutrients through nitrate and phosphate dosing as well as Microbacter 7. Got my film algae growing on the glass again at least. Not sure if I should do a water change this weekend and try to suck some dinos out or just leave it alone.

Film algae is a good, healthy sign. Don't be surprised if a little cyano joins the mix in the next week or two. Totally normal and almost expected. Just keep going with 10/.1 NO3 and PO4 while the rest of the algae and bacteria species gear up to hold some space. Ultimately, coralline will take over from there.

Unless you are seeing some struggling corals, skipping WCs is your best bet for a little while, then baby step your way into WCs. Keep basting. Getting an dino ID is extremely helpful in guiding your intervention -- particularly the UV / no-UV question. Also helps set your timeline expectations.

 

[saltyhog]

Dirty tank method update.. its been a few days since my last, after initial succsss in seeing reductions I would say today has been the worst day of all.

Increasing nutrients at this point seems to be increasing the dinos.

However, I also lost my UV during maitenance since it was a cheap piece of junk.

Im waiting on new one aquauv should arrive on Monday its 26 watts but claims 150gal.

The next one up is way to large for my system at 57 watt and requires way to much flow so the 26watt seemed to only make sense.

By going dt to dt with it (at first) i think the 26 watt is riding the line of appropriate (dt is 112 gal) best I could do I hope it arrives soon (next week most likely).

Gonna hold off on a 2 day black out for when the UV arrives and go for the double whammy.

Hope tank holds up until then.

Keep running carbon and change it often. I'm sure it was the loss of the UV that caused the set back.

26 watt is pretty undersized for your tank unfortunately. The manufacturer's size recommendations are for completely different applications. Hopefully it will help but it's less than optimal. The 57 watt would have been great. Jaebo also makes a 55 watt that is much less expensive, but still works well.

 

[Scribz718]

Wife posting on husband's account: Need some help with battling my dinos.

Identified that I have at least prorocentrum, coolia, small cell amphidnium and possibly ostreopsis.

I have been battling the dinos for about a month in total (at first I thought it was cyano - so went in the wrong treatment direction).

I did a one day blackout in hopes of cutting down numbers and that seemed to help but was concerned how the corals would do with any further blackout.

Ran a 57w Aqua UV in display with approx 250gph (probably hitting close to 180,000ug) for 2 weeks and saw no results.

At this point my corals are suffering. I have lost all my acros and losing a torch. Thankfully I have a second tank that I was able to transfer corals to after a good dip, and blow/brush off.

Tank Specs:
Red Sea 525xl
100g net volume

Parameters:
NO3 - 25ppm
PO4 - 0.13
dKh - 8
Ca - 430
Mg - 1450
Sg - 1.025
ICP - Pending
NDOC - Pending

Added:
IPSF Liquid-N Live Sand Activator
IPSF Wondermud
Amphipods, Copepods

Regimen:
Dose approx 20-25ml All-For-Reef
Dose 20ml Phyto mid-day feeding (nannochloropsis)
Dose MicroBacter Clean 150ml after evening feeding
Skimmer set to just provide aeration and scrub co2 (turned all the way down)
Running activated carbon in a reactor (changing media weekly with the understanding that massive dino die off could release toxins)
Dose 30ml Sponge Excel daily (trying to force a diatom bloom)
Reef Brite Live Rock Enhance every 2 days
15ml H2o2 nightly
bubble scrubbing 24/7
manual circular siphon (makes it 10x worse)
Daily Filter Floss replacement

 

[saltyhog]

Wife posting on husband's account: Need some help with battling my dinos.

Identified that I have at least prorocentrum, coolia, small cell amphidnium and possibly ostreopsis.

I have been battling the dinos for about a month in total (at first I thought it was cyano - so went in the wrong treatment direction).

I did a one day blackout in hopes of cutting down numbers and that seemed to help but was concerned how the corals would do with any further blackout.

Ran a 57w Aqua UV in display with approx 250gph (probably hitting close to 180,000ug) for 2 weeks and saw no results.

At this point my corals are suffering. I have lost all my acros and losing a torch. Thankfully I have a second tank that I was able to transfer corals to after a good dip, and blow/brush off.

Tank Specs:
Red Sea 525xl
100g net volume

Parameters:
NO3 - 25ppm
PO4 - 0.13
dKh - 8
Ca - 430
Mg - 1450
Sg - 1.025
ICP - Pending
NDOC - Pending

Added:
IPSF Liquid-N Live Sand Activator
IPSF Wondermud
Amphipods, Copepods

Regimen:
Dose approx 20-25ml All-For-Reef
Dose 20ml Phyto mid-day feeding (nannochloropsis)
Dose MicroBacter Clean 150ml after evening feeding
Skimmer set to just provide aeration and scrub co2 (turned all the way down)
Running activated carbon in a reactor (changing media weekly with the understanding that massive dino die off could release toxins)
Dose 30ml Sponge Excel daily (trying to force a diatom bloom)
Reef Brite Live Rock Enhance every 2 days
15ml H2o2 nightly
bubble scrubbing 24/7
manual circular siphon (makes it 10x worse)
Daily Filter Floss replacement

When was the last time you sampled your dinos? Could you post a couple of videos?

Change your carbon every 3-4 days, it can get expended rapidly with high levels of dinos/toxins.

 

[Shuladog]

not as clearly detrimental. dinos can't ingest phyto directly, but toxic dino mucus can trap phyto and kill pods that are grown by phyto.

slightly negative in my opinion, and from what I've seen.

some may say slightly positive, but nobody reports strong positive effects.

Thank you taricha, could you (or someone else) advise on a specific UV filter to get for my Red Sea 525xl?