Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Zbryant]

Anyone looking for a UV for a larger

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001GP51WU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_FwWMAbAQTW67Q

It’s not cheap, but it’s like $300 off and brand new obviously. Just received mine and plumbed to my 125 gallon display. I’ll keep you posted on the results.

 

[TRNANCE]

I tired down my tank some time ago and starting new, my patience was over and I really nuked my tank trying all those crazy methods from the other post. Thats my new baby, wish me look for dinos to stay away, at least ostreopsis.

I am just reading this thread and I am on page 16 of 165 but I really hope there will be updates in the rest of the threads about your rebuild because I am very close to doing the same thing that you have, I too went the Metro/chemicals route and that was the beginning of the end for my tank. I also love your aqua scape it’s one of the best that I have seen.

 

[Jolanta]

I am just reading this thread and I am on page 16 of 165 but I really hope there will be updates in the rest of the threads about your rebuild because I am very close to doing the same thing that you have, I too went the Metro/chemicals route and that was the beginning of the end for my tank. I also love your aqua scape it’s one of the best that I have seen.

Thank you very much! Now it looks quite diferent with mature rocks, dont have a lot of corals yet but its dino free

I only put back my fish with few baths of new water before introducing them, all my corals stays in a nano and I had problems with ostreopsis there, now its ostreopsis free but have a strong case of chrysophyta or whatever it is.

 

[chefjpaul]

Before & a few months later.
So far, stable, acros took a massive hit ~90%.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I am just reading this thread and I am on page 16 of 165 but I really hope there will be updates in the rest of the threads about your rebuild because I am very close to doing the same thing that you have, I too went the Metro/chemicals route and that was the beginning of the end for my tank. I also love your aqua scape it’s one of the best that I have seen.

There are a lot of ups and down in this thread. If you keep reading I think you'll find some resolve at the end of the tunnel. The biggest debate remains why we want to ID if the answer is in the nutrients? It's really not that cut and dry. A lot of issues with treatment stems from not properly increasing and keeping added nutrients consistently. Big swings in nutrients slows progress and with that, big swings happen because we don't realize how quickly nutrients deplete in 1 or 2 days. So when someone says they've battling for 2 weeks, really it's been 1 week. The first week takes time to figure out the right dosing. I think if you are 3 or 4 weeks into treatment and things aren't getting better, its better to report back to see if we can modify the treatment. That is something I had to do with my treatment because it's possible multiple strains are present. One strain might pop up because of zero nutrients or competitors. Whereas another strain might pop up because of too much nutrients with limited competitors. Identifying your dinos helps other support each other.

 

[chefjpaul]

There are a lot of ups and down in this thread. If you keep reading I think you'll find some resolve at the end of the tunnel. The biggest debate remains why we want to ID if the answer is in the nutrients? It's really not that cut and dry. A lot of issues with treatment stems from not properly increasing and keeping added nutrients consistently. Big swings in nutrients slows progress and with that, big swings happen because we don't realize how quickly nutrients deplete in 1 or 2 days. So when someone says they've battling for 2 weeks, really it's been 1 week. The first week takes time to figure out the right dosing. I think if you are 3 or 4 weeks into treatment and things aren't getting better, its better to report back to see if we can modify the treatment. That is something I had to do with my treatment because it's possible multiple strains are present. One strain might pop up because of zero nutrients or competitors. Whereas another strain might pop up because of too much nutrients with limited competitors. Identifying your dinos helps other support each other.

Great points.
I do think the biggest overlook that you pointed out is the time and patience.
This was about a 6 month battle for me.

Don't stress, act too quickly, and be patient, like a game of chess.

I took the out compete approach after identification, then battled algae / cyano down. Slow and steady.

 

[taricha]

Just gonna respond to a few points to re-emphasize some things discussed earlier in the thread.

I plumbed the Pentair40w UV directly into the display and tank.
.... To answer your question - yes the UV sterilizer made a huge impact. BUT I was not leaving anything to chance. Dosing and, I believe, mechanical removal was critical to keep the Dino’s from gaining more of a foothold. I leave it to the experts on this forum to chime in their comments as well but I think reading through this thread and employing the methods has made
L a difference. (Said the novice with 1 week of positive results.)

Well done. You nailed the big points.

Ok so I increased phos to 0.12ppm ...No carbon dosing. Real sloppy feeding. Some people would kill to have my problem of low nutrients. The pukani soak can’t make phosphate fast enough worked for two days and got used up. Tsp here I come.

...I’m gonna work on raising my phosphates to around .5 or so since I’m showing no readings and then I will take steps to raise my nitrates up to around 5ppm and see how the Dino’s react at that point. To raise the phosphates I’m thinking of maybe doing a little over feeding ... If not I’ll does potassium phosphate for planted tanks or whatever and see what happens. I’ve seen some instances of people using that and having good results.

People find that dosing inorganic P is more helpful than heavy feeding, both at the short term goal of elevating PO4, and the medium term goal of favoring algae growth over dino growth. Dinos like organic forms of P and N and aren't as good at using simple inorganic PO4 and NO3.
Most tanks show a turnaround way before 0.5ppm PO4.
Clever using pukani as PO4 source. will think more on that later.

Hey since the Dino’s leave every night does that mean a uv sterilizer would kill them? Where do the go? It’s only a few hours of dark that is required to see them go.

Almost all kinds we have disappear at night into the water column (and so is targeted by UV etc). The other major kind that doesn't - Large Cell Amphidinium - goes down into the sand at night. The effect in both cases is that the sand appears "cleaner" every morning and "worse" every afternoon.

I'll constantly dose NoPoX and Amino Acids (to feed the corals)

Ironically, carbon dosing to drop P levels, and amino acids to feed dinos for me has been a rock-solid way to prep water to become totally taken over with dinos. Done it with cultures in beakers and in a nano tank.

Anyone have any advice on getting what I have in my tank IDed? I can't seem to figure it out with my toy scope. I'm willing to pay someone for the help.

Use a smart phone camera right on the eyepiece. You ought to be able to get pics and a quick vid of movement. Attach pics, upload vid to youtube etc and post here. Lots of helpful people in here.
If the pics are much worse quality than what your eye sees, then you can check pics and vids here:
http://www.algaeid.com/identification/

For nitrates I was thinking of either dosing with stump remover like I’ve seen a lot or flourish nitrogen. Also was considering adding like sodium nitrate or KNO3 planted tank fertilizer. I’ve seen some people warn against overdosing potassium but I don’t anticipate on that being a problem

Correct. Potassium levels in Sea water is ~400ppm. So dosing KNO3 to get (for instance) 10ppm NO3 would contribute a whopping 6ppm of K to the 400 already there. Entirely negligible, and macroalgae ought to uptake it anyway.

'm starting to see a little bit of green algae on my back glass so I guess that is progress! Also order a little fiji mud. I've always thought of that as snake oil but the bacteria can't hurt right?

Yep. progress!
Infusions of live rock and bacterial sources like what you are considering have been reported by some users to be helpful in acting against dinos. Sometimes it was enough to turn the tide, but in some cases if the dinos were bad - it was only small temporary progress.
Flip side is that bacteria-heavy environments created by carbon dosing or Zeovit method have been often taken over by dinos.
How to know which bacteria act against dinos and which don't? I'd like to know the answer to that!

These close ups look different to me. Almost like a drawing. I mean no offense. I'm just having a hard time ID the green blobs let alone the dinos.

I agree with beardo on the ostreopsis, but I'm with you I would like to know what kind of segmented green algae we're looking at.

 

[Bob Lauson]

@Bob Lauson You've been quiet? Hows the battle going?

I’ve been out of town for the last 3 days. Returning tomorrow for a look at the tank. Fingers crossed I am still Dino free.

 

[sfin52]

@taricha Does stirring the sand bed kick up large amphidimuin into the water column.

 

[taricha]

@taricha Does stirring the sand bed kick up large amphidimuin into the water column.

No. Not in useful numbers. They stay pretty tight on/between sand grains

 

[Mike S]

With elevated nutrients it would help with combating any hair algae that would grow in the display. Otherwise ATS soul purpose is nutrient reduction which is opposite of what this thread is promoting.

Ok I've read through the first 1100 or so posts and much of that has been late at night so it might not be sinking in. I'm a little confused on what we are trying to encourage to grow in our tanks to compete with the dinos... algae, bacteria or both? I thought algae was part of the equation and why I was continuing to run my ATS as normal. Should I be dialing it back and waiting until the bloom has past and then ramp it up afterwards to assist with the algae control while being careful not to bottom out my nutrients?

My ATS runs overnight and through this weekend I've been checking my PO4 and NO3 in the morning and evening. I'm getting my dosing dialed in and keeping my PO4 around 10 or above and NO3 in the 5 to 10 range. I've been hitting them with the baster a few times a day. They appear to be lessening but hard to tell for sure since I'm trying not to let them build up during the day. I'll be at work tomorrow so it will be a good test to see how they look after being left alone all day.

Also going to try another source for phosphate. Blowing through the seachem flourish phosphourous. Ordered some food grade TSP off of amazon this weekend.

 

[TRNANCE]

You are hearing correctly.


(PM heading your way.)

So if I need it keep my Phosphates at 0.10 ppm while attempting to beat Dino then where should I keep my Nitrates in order to keep a good balance? And if I where to beat Dino would I then want to keep my Phosphate at 0.10 ppm going forward?

 

[sfin52]

Nitrate 5-10ppm

 

[Jeremy Gibbs]

Great news! And timely for me as I've been debating ordering some grunge to add to my biodiversity and fight. But have been hesitant 1) not sure how things are running over there lately and 2) was afraid to add something to my tank that might include unwanted inhabitants (part of 1st point). How did you order? Website or Facebook?

I ordered 20 lbs from them through the website about three weeks ago. Excellent stuff. I'd go the LFS route but where I am, the LFS tanks scare me more than the dinos. [emoji846] Remaining Ostreopsis free. It's now been 2 weeks since I was able to find any in my samples. I've also been keeping my nitrate between 2 and 5 ppm and phosphate around .08. Food keeps the phosphate up but I'm having to dose 1.5 ppm nitrate daily to keep up with my biological filtration. I went through a brief light diatom bloom and a touch of cyano here and there where the Ostreopsis aggregates were previously but both are abating now. No signs of any other undesirable stuff at this point. I'm convinced it's the microfaunal biodiversity that shuts down the dinos. The nutrient dosing just feeds the competing microfauna.

 

[mainn]

I did everything to get rid of dinos. Blackout, h2o2 etc... in the end I restarted my tank.

 

[sfin52]

Fiji mud will also add bio back into the the tank.

Yes we are trying to bring the biodiversity back to the tank.

I whould blow if the rock everyday. That’s what I did.

Providing the po4 and nitrates helps keep dino from switching to all predator mode for lack of better word. They are photosynthesis and can switch to more of a predator and go after bacteria and such when po4 and No3 are limited or o.

@mainn they I believe are present in all of our tanks.

 

[taricha]

I'm a little confused on what we are trying to encourage to grow in our tanks to compete with the dinos... algae, bacteria or both? I thought algae was part of the equation and why I was continuing to run my ATS as normal. Should I be dialing it back and waiting until the bloom has past and then ramp it up afterwards to assist with the algae control while being careful not to bottom out my nutrients?

My ATS runs overnight and through this weekend I've been checking my PO4 and NO3 in the morning and evening. I'm getting my dosing dialed in and keeping my PO4 around 10 or above and NO3 in the 5 to 10 range. I've been hitting them with the baster a few times a day. They appear to be lessening but hard to tell for sure since I'm trying not to let them build up during the day. I'll be at work tomorrow so it will be a good test to see how they look after being left alone all day.

Also going to try another source for phosphate. Blowing through the seachem flourish phosphourous. Ordered some food grade TSP off of amazon this weekend.

Yes, green algae and the microfauna it supports. If you are keeping your P & N consistent and elevated (sounds like you are) then the Scrubber can stay. Some people have real problems achieving measurable consistent nutrients, so the scrubber makes that worse.

Update us on the Trisodium phosphate after you try it out. I used some, but its not a commonly used phosphate source.

 

[smoothmove]

Total non scientific and WMMV journey thru my fight with Dinos.

I have an 80 rimless with three Kessil 160's and a 75 gallon with two Kessil 160's. I have been fighting Dinos in the 80 gallon with bubbles rising like seltzer water throughout the day. 75 gallon is clean without any issues.

In the 80, I went bare bottom. After about a month, I realized that I provided them with a gift of barren land to colonize. It is a field of depression as I glance upon it.

The water is the same as the 75 is the "sump" for my 80 gallon.

The only difference between the two is one extra Kessil.

I removed the extra light three days ago and now at noon, the alkaseltzer effect is gone and the Dino's are noticeably receding.

I have no idea what my water chemistry is at as I have not changed anything but the light. Nor do I care to test.

All of my corals are doing well, except for my Acro loss a month ago. I am still inconsolable, but healing.

I am starting to think that the intensity of the light was causing it and the water quality has less to do with it. Since the water is common between the two, I have a control group to continue to test my theory.

 

[Blanch]

These close ups look different to me. Almost like a drawing. I mean no offense. I'm just having a hard time ID the green blobs let alone the dinos.

Jaja yes same to me. A friend let me the microscope, have to achieve one for my own. One question, the brown circles, (what is supposed to be dinos) do not move. Should they?

 

[subareef]

People find that dosing inorganic P is more helpful than heavy feeding, both at the short term goal of elevating PO4, and the medium term goal of favoring algae growth over dino growth. Dinos like organic forms of P and N and aren't as good at using simple inorganic PO4 and NO3.
Most tanks show a turnaround way before 0.5ppm PO4.
Clever using pukani as PO4 source. will think more on that later.

Correct. Potassium levels in Sea water is ~400ppm. So dosing KNO3 to get (for instance) 10ppm NO3 would contribute a whopping 6ppm of K to the 400 already there. Entirely negligible, and macroalgae ought to uptake it anyway.

Inorganic? What can I use for inorganic phosphate and nitrate? I’m thinking I will do the KNO3 for the nitrates at least. Just trying to figure the phosphates out