Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Jolanta]

Im dino free maybe about more then two weeks now, I really recoment UV. My corals are open, happy and growing. My nitrates read 5 and my phosphate 0.05, have some ugly chrysophyta still hanging but I hope one day will go away.

 

[Bob Lauson]

Is there a recommended course of action to add bio-diversity into the aquarium once the dino population is no longer visiable? Add copepods? Live sand? Both of those? Other good stuff?

 

[reeferfoxx]

Is there a recommended course of action to add bio-diversity into the aquarium once the dino population is no longer visiable? Add copepods? Live sand? Both of those? Other good stuff?

Bob, I would give it time. I've been visibly dino free for a few months, and I'm still afraid to add pods. That said, it may not be that serious. However, consider that UV kills pods, so I think it is best to wait until you've been in the clear for some time. The dino die off from the UV may prompt cyano for a bit. There will be a shaky balance in that time due to the fact that cyano will consume and could reopen the dino window.

 

[reeferfoxx]

@Bob Lauson Please don't hate me. I know I always say things nobody wants to hear. I wish everything was as simple as putting rock in saltwater. In your case, the cyano might be short lived as well as your UV might be more efficient than mine. As long as you understand that once dinos are gone, it's almost like beginning the maturation process all over again. There will be ugly phases. The ugly is what keeps us hobbyists. The beauty is what we as hobbyists appreciate and can congratulate ourselves for. The end game or post dino long-term solutions are still being worked out. Our tanks are fragile and have to be treated as such. I don't go a day and think about hooking up my new chaeto reactor and seeding pods. Till then, I'm focused on water quality, feeding regimen, and looking at other ways to diversify microbial communities. What I'm doing now is dosing beneficial nitrifying bacteria, probiotics, and Walt Smiths Fiji Mud. The bacteria is to replenish any lost bacteria. The probiotic is to help fortify the beneficial bacteria. The Fiji Mud is to introduce trace elements, including diatoms and silicates, as well as any microfauna within the mud. The mud is pulled straight from the Fiji waters. It comes wet and I mix half a tablespoon(for my water volume) in a cup of water and pour directly into the display. Takes about 45-2 hours for it to settle. Some other things I'm wanting to do is seed bristleworms and brittlestars to help keep detritus from settling within my rocks. These are a few long term methods to keep you busy and if anyone else can come up with other ways, please share.

 

[Bob Lauson]

@reeferfoxx That is exactly the type of answer I am looking for. My knee-jerk reaction is to starting adding live sand, some pods, more corals, additional fish, some cheato in the sump, etc. My knee-jerk reactions only get me into trouble and started me down several rabbit holes in search of a dino cure for months. I had to take a step back, read what other had done and pull out the best things that seemed most applicable. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Jeremy Gibbs]

About a month ago I moved my 250 gallon system into a new 330 gallon system (one room of my house to another). When I did so I moved the sump contents first (the day before) but I decided not to re-deploy my deep sand bed which was a 5 gallon bucket full of mud, rubble, and sand. Instead I setup the new sump with three 4x8x8 blocks of Marine Pure. I had pre-seeded them with several different bacterial additives including Microbacter 7. I moved the entire contents into the new display over the course of about 5 hours. I had no major crises during the move. I had the new system nearly filled with fresh mixed saltwater (Red Sea Coral Pro) which I made up 3 days prior to the move and had already added bacterial additives ahead of time. Immediately following the move into new water everything, fish and corals, seemed healthy and happy. The little bit of hair algae I had on the rocks seemed to be just melting away and I had high hopes for a 100% successful transition.

About a week in on the new system I started seeing a light brown film and figured it was diatoms, until about day two that is. I started to notice the tell tale signs of dinoflagellates (small bubbles and a stringy snot-like consistency). I didn't hit the panic button at first though. I just got out my old trusty H2O2 and started dosing using 1 ml per 10 gallons per day at night so I'd catch the dinos when they were in the water column. I also turned up my ozone a little bit. I checked and Nitrates were undetectable on the Red Sea test kit. Phosphates were barely detectable somewhere below .04 ppm anyway. I thought it was odd after fairly heavy feedings out of the gate that the Nitrates were that low, but it was my first experience with Marine Pure so I thought that was a good thing. By day three things were getting worse. I started seeing a brown film forming on the surface in the sump tank. I kept up the H2O2 dosing for another 3 days to absolutely no avail. During this time I was running a BRS dual reactor filled with Carbon in both canisters because I was concerned about the toxins. All the fish seemed fine but the corals were seeming to be mildly unhappy. Since the H2O2 wasn't working I decided to take some swabs of the dinos and try to ID them with the microscope. What I saw in the microscope made me hit the panic button. Positively Ostreopsis ovata.

I've never dealt with them before but I knew they were like the black plague of the reef hobby. I quickly discovered that H2O2 has no impact on Ostreopsis. I was ready to do a 3 day blackout but I wanted to be sure to hedge my bets by attacking it on multiple fronts all at the same time. It seems some of our Spanish reefing friends had good results with the "dirty method". That involves increasing microfauna biodiversity as much as possible and dosing phytoplankton and overfeeding as well, the idea being that you're creating competition for the resources the dinos are using and maybe even some predatory populations to consume them. I did some more reading on some of the research involving contributing factors to Ostreopsis blooms (red tides) in the wild and saw that keeping temperatures consistently below 77 degrees might help but that the main thing that seemed to make the greatest difference was the nitrate to phosphate ratio being above the Redfield ratio (16:1). I knew mine was WAY below that. I knew that since my animals have all been kept for years at a consistent temperature around 80 degrees that dialing the temp down might have unintended consequences so I didn't go that route. This is a very mature system, continuously running for over a decade but it occurred to me that the choice to leave off the deep sand bed bucket in the new system had probably seriously reduced my microfaunal biodiversity.

I had a plan. Here's what I did that turned it around.
- First I placed an order for 20 lbs of fresh new live rock rubble for the sump from Salty Bottom in Florida. I wanted to just collect some rubble from someone locally with a good healthy mature tank but I wasn't able to find anyone to donate to the cause.
- Second I placed an order for 20 lbs of GARG grunge from garf.org. I knew this combined with the rubble rock would bring in quite a bit of new microfauna.
- Third I stopped dosing H2O2 and turned off the ozone and started dosing live phytoplankton instead. I also added 3 more bacterial products (though in hindsight this may have been the least helpful thing I did because it helped drive Nitrates even lower).
- Fourth I started over-feeding for a couple of days and turned the skimmer off at night.
- Fifth I started dosing nitrates. For this I used Spectracide Stump Remover. I mixed 45 grams of the granules with RODI water in a half gallon jug and dosed 10 mL twice daily to bring them up very slowly. I tested nitrates and phosphates daily for about 4 days. Once I had nitrates showing 2 ppm and phosphates showing about .08 on the Red Sea test kits I knew I was well above the Redfield ratio.
- Finally I covered the display (couldn't cover the sump - it's complicated) for 3 days. I worried this wouldn't be enough but as it turns out I believe it was.

After uncovering the display on the 4th day I turned the lights back on using the acclimation setting on my Radions set to a three week ramp up from 45%. I'm now ten days out from turning the light back on and seeing no signs of re-emergence. I did start seeing a brown film on the bottom and walls of the tank yesterday, but I took dozens of samples as well as scrapings from formerly infested areas of the rock and scoured them under the microscope. This time it really is diatoms and a fairly minor bloom at that. In all the samples I looked at over the course of about 4 hours yesterday I couldn't find a single Ostreopsis. The corals are all back to full polyp extension and the SPS colonies are even starting to show better color. From what I'm reading that is probably related to my continued dosing of the Stump Remover (KNO3). Even with the dosing of KNO3 I'm still struggling to push nitrates above 2 ppm. Testament to Marine Pure I believe. Gradually increasing the nitrate dosing shooting for about 5 ppm as this seems to be the sweet spot for SPS keepers. I've gone back to running GFO and Carbon instead of double Carbon in the BRS dual reactor. I've also reinstated the ozone. I know 10 days isn't an absolute proof of cure, but I'm quite hopeful since I wasn't able to find a single Ostreopsis in any of the samples. I'm under no illusion that I eradicated them. I am positive there are still cysts in my system. I think a lot of us have dinoflagellates, cyanobacteria, and all manner of other pesky things living in our tanks. It's part of having a mature biodiverse system. Over time we collect them as we add corals, macroalgae, etc... It's only when they try to take over the system that they become a problem. I hope this helps. Don't give up. This battle can be won.

 

[revhtree]

About a month ago I moved my 250 gallon system into a new 330 gallon system (one room of my house to another). When I did so I moved the sump contents first (the day before) but I decided not to re-deploy my deep sand bed which was a 5 gallon bucket full of mud, rubble, and sand. Instead I setup the new sump with three 4x8x8 blocks of Marine Pure. I had pre-seeded them with several different bacterial additives including Microbacter 7. I moved the entire contents into the new display over the course of about 5 hours. I had no major crises during the move. I had the new system nearly filled with fresh mixed saltwater (Red Sea Coral Pro) which I made up 3 days prior to the move and had already added bacterial additives ahead of time. Immediately following the move into new water everything, fish and corals, seemed healthy and happy. The little bit of hair algae I had on the rocks seemed to be just melting away and I had high hopes for a 100% successful transition.

About a week in on the new system I started seeing a light brown film and figured it was diatoms, until about day two that is. I started to notice the tell tale signs of dinoflagellates (small bubbles and a stringy snot-like consistency). I didn't hit the panic button at first though. I just got out my old trusty H2O2 and started dosing using 1 ml per 10 gallons per day at night so I'd catch the dinos when they were in the water column. I also turned up my ozone a little bit. I checked and Nitrates were undetectable on the Red Sea test kit. Phosphates were barely detectable somewhere below .04 ppm anyway. I thought it was odd after fairly heavy feedings out of the gate that the Nitrates were that low, but it was my first experience with Marine Pure so I thought that was a good thing. By day three things were getting worse. I started seeing a brown film forming on the surface in the sump tank. I kept up the H2O2 dosing for another 3 days to absolutely no avail. During this time I was running a BRS dual reactor filled with Carbon in both canisters because I was concerned about the toxins. All the fish seemed fine but the corals were seeming to be mildly unhappy. Since the H2O2 wasn't working I decided to take some swabs of the dinos and try to ID them with the microscope. What I saw in the microscope made me hit the panic button. Positively Ostreopsis ovata.

I've never dealt with them before but I knew they were like the black plague of the reef hobby. I quickly discovered that H2O2 has no impact on Ostreopsis. I was ready to do a 3 day blackout but I wanted to be sure to hedge my bets by attacking it on multiple fronts all at the same time. It seems some of our Spanish reefing friends had good results with the "dirty method". That involves increasing microfauna biodiversity as much as possible and dosing phytoplankton and overfeeding as well, the idea being that you're creating competition for the resources the dinos are using and maybe even some predatory populations to consume them. I did some more reading on some of the research involving contributing factors to Ostreopsis blooms (red tides) in the wild and saw that keeping temperatures consistently below 77 degrees might help but that the main thing that seemed to make the greatest difference was the nitrate to phosphate ratio being above the Redfield ratio (16:1). I knew mine was WAY below that. I knew that since my animals have all been kept for years at a consistent temperature around 80 degrees that dialing the temp down might have unintended consequences so I didn't go that route. This is a very mature system, continuously running for over a decade but it occurred to me that the choice to leave off the deep sand bed bucket in the new system had probably seriously reduced my microfaunal biodiversity.

I had a plan. Here's what I did that turned it around.
- First I placed an order for 20 lbs of fresh new live rock rubble for the sump from Salty Bottom in Florida. I wanted to just collect some rubble from someone locally with a good healthy mature tank but I wasn't able to find anyone to donate to the cause.
- Second I placed an order for 20 lbs of GARG grunge from garf.org. I knew this combined with the rubble rock would bring in quite a bit of new microfauna.
- Third I stopped dosing H2O2 and turned off the ozone and started dosing live phytoplankton instead. I also added 3 more bacterial products (though in hindsight this may have been the least helpful thing I did because it helped drive Nitrates even lower).
- Fourth I started over-feeding for a couple of days and turned the skimmer off at night.
- Fifth I started dosing nitrates. For this I used Spectracide Stump Remover. I mixed 45 grams of the granules with RODI water in a half gallon jug and dosed 10 mL twice daily to bring them up very slowly. I tested nitrates and phosphates daily for about 4 days. Once I had nitrates showing 2 ppm and phosphates showing about .08 on the Red Sea test kits I knew I was well above the Redfield ratio.
- Finally I covered the display (couldn't cover the sump - it's complicated) for 3 days. I worried this wouldn't be enough but as it turns out I believe it was.

After uncovering the display on the 4th day I turned the lights back on using the acclimation setting on my Radions set to a three week ramp up from 45%. I'm now ten days out from turning the light back on and seeing no signs of re-emergence. I did start seeing a brown film on the bottom and walls of the tank yesterday, but I took dozens of samples as well as scrapings from formerly infested areas of the rock and scoured them under the microscope. This time it really is diatoms and a fairly minor bloom at that. In all the samples I looked at over the course of about 4 hours yesterday I couldn't find a single Ostreopsis. The corals are all back to full polyp extension and the SPS colonies are even starting to show better color. From what I'm reading that is probably related to my continued dosing of the Stump Remover (KNO3). Even with the dosing of KNO3 I'm still struggling to push nitrates above 2 ppm. Testament to Marine Pure I believe. Gradually increasing the nitrate dosing shooting for about 5 ppm as this seems to be the sweet spot for SPS keepers. I've gone back to running GFO and Carbon instead of double Carbon in the BRS dual reactor. I've also reinstated the ozone. I know 10 days isn't an absolute proof of cure, but I'm quite hopeful since I wasn't able to find a single Ostreopsis in any of the samples. I'm under no illusion that I eradicated them. I am positive there are still cysts in my system. I think a lot of us have dinoflagellates, cyanobacteria, and all manner of other pesky things living in our tanks. It's part of having a mature biodiverse system. Over time we collect them as we add corals, macroalgae, etc... It's only when they try to take over the system that they become a problem. I hope this helps. Don't give up. This battle can be won.

Thank you for the info and welcome!

 

[Jeremy Gibbs]

This is why I couldn't cover my sump. It's upstream from the display with mangroves and a protein skimmer standing in it. And it's in a sunroom with tubular skylights. There just wasn't a good way to black it out.

 

[revhtree]

This is why I couldn't cover my sump. It's upstream from the display with mangroves and a protein skimmer standing in it. And it's in a sunroom with tubular skylights. There just wasn't a good way to black it out.

Very nice!

 

[Jeremy Gibbs]

EDIT - something I forgot to mention but may well have been a very important piece because of the biodiversity boost was the addition of a fresh bucket of Walt Smith's Fiji Mud. I dumped the mud out of the plastic bag directly into a plastic container and put the container in the sump. I also clouded the water with it daily for several days leading up to and immediately following the blackout. I typically grab a small handful and cloud the tank with it about once a week but hadn't done it in a long time prior to the dino outbreak.

 

[reeferfoxx]

EDIT - something I forgot to mention but may well have been a very important piece because of the biodiversity boost was the addition of a fresh bucket of Walt Smith's Fiji Mud. I dumped the mud out of the plastic bag directly into a plastic container and put the container in the sump. I also clouded the water with it daily for several days leading up to and immediately following the blackout. I typically grab a small handful and cloud the tank with it about once a week but hadn't done it in a long time prior to the dino outbreak.

Yay! I'm not the only one using it lol!

 

[Jeremy Gibbs]

Yay! I'm not the only one using it lol!

It's good stuff. Can't hurt, assuming you have decent flow and aren't coating your corals in a layer of it. My corals have always responded positively to it and I'm a true believer in biodiversity being key.

 

[revhtree]

EDIT - something I forgot to mention but may well have been a very important piece because of the biodiversity boost was the addition of a fresh bucket of Walt Smith's Fiji Mud. I dumped the mud out of the plastic bag directly into a plastic container and put the container in the sump. I also clouded the water with it daily for several days leading up to and immediately following the blackout. I typically grab a small handful and cloud the tank with it about once a week but hadn't done it in a long time prior to the dino outbreak.

I actually order a 12lb container of this yesterday due to the recommendation of others.

 

[reeferfoxx]

On the discussion of pods and refugiums. When is the right time to seed them and add macro algae?

I haven't been dosing nutrients and my po4 and no3 stay measurable but relatively low. I still have some GHA and cyano growing. So, its more organic than inorganic which our po4 kits really only test the inorganic. I pulled out my microscope to see if there were any dino friends helping drive my inorganic nutrients low and I can't find any. Though I have a lot of isopods, I can't seem to find any copepods. My corals are thriving, my snails seems healthy, my hermits are lazy(I dont like hermits lol), and my water parameters are stable. Has anyone else tried adding pods and macro algae to their refugiums after eradication? Should I be the guinea pig? @mcarroll @taricha @Beardo Thoughts on this?

 

[subareef]

I have a 75 gallon DT and a 30gallon sump with protein skimmer and such, refugium but its not set up at the moment. I have been battling dinos and gha for a long time now and im losing patience lol. The tank as set up about a year ago and it went through the nasty phases and was clean at one point for about a few weeks. I have tried carbon, phosphate removers thinking my levels of phosphate are helping it out and the gha, vibrant, chemiclean for a cyano outbreak I had and I have seen a few tiny spots recently so it seems its coming back, large water changes combined with filter socks and siphoing it off of rocks and blowing it around the aquarium, taking rocks out and scrubbing them, nothing is WORKING

My phospates are at about 6ppm
Nitrates are below 1ppm and I am having one heck of a time getting them to rise at all even through feedings. I havent seen tehm rise past that level in a long time. I recently didnt change the ater for about a month to try to get bacteria levels to rise and such and the nitrates never rose either

I have 2 clowns and a yellow tang, crabs, snails, etc
A few zoas

What else can I do? I have been reading people saying UV helps and kills it, reading through the 160 pages is time consuming. ive also seen people talk about rising the nitrate level to rid them. I am open to any suggestions at this point. I have tried the peroxide dosing and it did nothing at all for about 2weeks. Tried the 2 day blackout, and it comes right back.

What can I do to rise the nitrates safely? I have a few zoas as well.
Ive always read that you want nitrates as low as possible but now im seeing otherwise? also thought phosphates should be low as possible but now Im seeing thats not so great either/. I was going to adda GFO reactor and carbon to help but now Im holding off on that to see what others have had success with.

DinoX?
Vibrant?
Peroxide?
Siphoning?
Blackout?
NOxPOx?
Overskimming?


its getting to the point where I dont even want to look at the tank sometimes, when its clean and nice I love it but recently....help please. Almost want to say F it at this point

 

[g5flier]

Anyone want to take a stab at an ID on this in the center?

 

[dwest]

Hi all. I'm a long time (25 years or so) reefer. I've never posted anything on any site until now. Before I start I want to thank all of you for posting your information. I have read over every post and am now implementing many of the "fixes" I read about. Hopefully I can add to solving the dino problem.

I got into SPS a little heavier a couple years back when I upgraded my 125 to a 180. My tank right now is pretty wiped out with I believe are dinos. All SPS have died, LPS hanging on a no fish deaths yet. I had them about 10 years or so ago and they went away after killing a couple of fish and inverts. I believe they went away after I replaced my sand and added GFO. My phosphates were measurable on my old red sea kit. Likely they were very high...

This time, I was using GFO for a year or so into my new system, then went heavy with siporax as my nitrates were out of control. I was amazed that I didn't need to run GFO any longer as siporax seemed to keep nitrates and phosphates very low. My outbreak finally came when I upgraded my refugium lighting which likely dropped nutrients to very low levels as my cheato stopped growing.

My outbreak has been going for a couple of months now. Here's what I've done so far (with no improvements):
1. Elevated phosphates with Flourish Phosphorus to over 0.1 ppm (2 weeks now)
2. I've left my nitrates at 5 ppm naturally, although have ordered KNO3 to get to 10
3. Added a 57 aqua uv sterilizer one week ago with measured flow of 250 GPH
4. Added a Jabeo UV sterilizer tonight with estimated flow of around 200 GPH (mag drive 3)
5. Added a 5 micron sock to sump inlet (always ran sockless before)
6. Did some blasting of liverock (although this really disturbed my animals) and sand vacuuming (never vacuumed before)
7. Running carbon more and changing weekly (ran passively in past)
8. Bought the $12 microscope and think I see 'em!
9. I've never added any chemicals for eradication

So I would like to post some videos and photos for help with ID. Sorry for my ignorance, but do I just hit "upload a file" and add them?

 

[taricha]

Bob, I would give it time. I've been visibly dino free for a few months, and I'm still afraid to add pods. That said, it may not be that serious. However, consider that UV kills pods, so I think it is best to wait until you've been in the clear for some time.

Months seems excessive.
My tank hit a point when the sand was clear, macros were growing, my corals had polyp extension that made me say "wow, I never knew that coral HAD polyps" and if I saw that I'd be fine adding pods at that point. What you want to avoid is adding pods that will have to munch dinos and die, or starve and die - thus fueling dinos.
If my tank is growing algae, and I can't see dinos, I'd be okay introducing some pods in case they had been wiped out by toxins.

On the discussion of pods and refugiums. When is the right time to seed them and add macro algae?

I haven't been dosing nutrients and my po4 and no3 stay measurable but relatively low. I still have some GHA and cyano growing. So, its more organic than inorganic which our po4 kits really only test the inorganic. I pulled out my microscope to see if there were any dino friends helping drive my inorganic nutrients low and I can't find any. Though I have a lot of isopods, I can't seem to find any copepods. My corals are thriving, my snails seems healthy, my hermits are lazy(I dont like hermits lol), and my water parameters are stable. Has anyone else tried adding pods and macro algae to their refugiums after eradication?

Isopods are tougher than copepods, and multiple people (me too) have reported seeing isopods in numbers after a dino outbreak, when copepods aren't really seen (yet).
I actually pushed amphidinium dinos out of my display by macroalgae growth and the amphipods, isopods etc that the chaeto blobs supported and allowed to multiply. So with a low toxin dino, it can go in reverse - macros before dinos are gone. I wouldn't try that on anything other than amphidinium though.

Anyway to answer the general question:
Are dinos gone/invisible?
Is the tank toxin symptom free?
Is P & N consistently present and stable?
Is green starting to grow?
If the answer to all those is "YES", then I'd be fine getting some macros in the sump, and maybe a few into the display.

Is there a macro / green algae habitat in the sump or display?
If "YES", then I'd be okay to add some pods to the fuge. Most people find that a display is mostly where pods go to get eaten, but a fuge constantly churns out pods into the display. That's mostly how mine works.

 

[taricha]

Anyone want to take a stab at an ID on this in the center?

I'd guess amphidinium. Got a video?

I have a 75 gallon DT and a 30gallon sump with protein skimmer and such, refugium but its not set up at the moment. I have been battling dinos and gha for a long time now

Hah! Make up your mind!
I'm kidding, but really - for now dinos are the enemy and green algae is your ally. Don't worry - you can stab your ally in the back later with some herbivore grazers once dinos are gone. But for now, you love GHA.

I have tried carbon, phosphate removers, vibrant, chemiclean,...didnt change the water for about a month,...peroxide, ...2 day blackout...
DinoX?
Vibrant?
Peroxide?
Siphoning?
Blackout?
NOxPOx?
Overskimming?
...
its getting to the point where I dont even want to look at the tank sometimes, when its clean and nice I love it but recently....help please.

That's a pretty good list of things that generally haven't helped vs dinos. In fact many of them are associated with bringing on dino outbreaks. (sidenote: I've heard a lot of chemiclean -> Dinos lately.)

Check the first post. You'll find it's pretty opposite to what you've been doing lately. Can you give us your Phosphate number again (typo)? Do we have a confirmed Dino ID for you outbreak?

 

[taricha]

8. Bought the $12 microscope and think I see 'em!

So I would like to post some videos and photos for help with ID. Sorry for my ignorance, but do I just hit "upload a file" and add them?

Thanks for quality report! Really sorry about the coral loss.
Yes, you can upload file for pics. And for vids, uploading to youtube, and posting link works pretty well.