Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Paullawr]

I agree. My only concern and I didn't pay attention, are snails not wanting to do their job with it littered on the rocks. Maybe I should leave it there and see what happens?

Turkey baster and gently clear it. Though to be honest snails cope well in the wild during storms.

Still I personally would move it off the rocks.

 

[Paullawr]

First post here, but no better time than now to chime in...

Got back into the hobby this past August with an IM Lagoon 25 gallon tank. When I was previously in the hobby, zero PO4 and low NO3 were targets for a "healthy" tank. So I used dry rock, did QT, did very frequent water changes, etc. etc. to go for a super clean system. I was pretty pumped about a month ago when I finally got my PO4 down to 0 on the Hannah ULR checker. Then things got bad. Got the snot strings almost overnight, and have spent the last few weeks researching what to do.

I'm so glad I found this thread, because I was able to diagnose Ostreopsis and at least get a plan together. Started dosing PO4 per the recommendations on this thread, added more pods and snails, did lots of siphoning, lots of cussing, and added a Coralife 12X Turbo Twist UV sterilizer yesterday. My wife kept sending me texts while I was at work today about how great the tank was looking. I didn't want to get my hopes up, but I got home to a SIGNIFICANT improvement. I still don't want to get my hopes up, and know that the war is not over. But I am seriously excited about the progress made in the last 24 hours.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed - I was on the brink of giving up. Now, I'm almost ready to start shopping for frags again...

Pete

Nice work Pete. Well done to both of you. Often the spouse gets forgotten in the congratulations part but have to put up with a quantity of moaning and 'arsey' moods when hundreds of pounds/dollars of livestock go South.

Don't forget your not just a receiver of help you are now a giver for the next person that reads your post.

Its in the hobby now. The ole low nutrient goals have totally shifted.

One day we will have a cure but until then aquarium equilibrium is where its at. If that means slight higher nutrient levels then so be it.

On the plus side saves on buying loads of trace elements

 

[reeferfoxx]

I didn't want to get my hopes up, but I got home to a SIGNIFICANT improvement. I still don't want to get my hopes up, and know that the war is not over.

Congrats on the progress and I give major props for having this mindset. The hardest part about the battle is not accepting that it may not be over. And really that is how we should maintain our reefs for the time being. Its a fragile environment and dinos are ready for our mishaps.

Good luck on the progress and keep us updated

 

[reeferfoxx]

@Paullawr Glad you said something about carbon sources, I forgot to switch out GAC yesterday. Also my skimmer and UV have been off all day as well. And I forgot to mention I dose Eco-Balance after the bacteria dosing. Anyway, updated pics. Water looks very very clear.

 

[saltyhog]

Quick question. In medicine we encounter one parasite very frequently that appears microscopically to be a dinoflagellate (Trichamonas vaginalis). It is usually very easy treated with metronidazole. Why won't this work for our dinos? Takes too high a concentration to be reef safe? Or is there something about the ones that live in marine water that makes them resistant?

 

[Jolanta]

Getting home and made some test under my poor microscope and thats what I see

Do you think its ostreopsis? I see it diferent, my tank looks the same today

 

[reeferfoxx]

Quick question. In medicine we encounter one parasite very frequently that appears microscopically to be a dinoflagellate (Trichamonas vaginalis). It is usually very easy treated with metronidazole. Why won't this work for our dinos? Takes too high a concentration to be reef safe? Or is there something about the ones that live in marine water that makes them resistant?

We have a whole thread on dosing metro for dinos. It only makes them lethargic. It was deemed a failed approach.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Getting home and made some test under my poor microscope and thats what I see

Do you think its ostreopsis? I see it diferent, my tank looks the same today

If red slime rx worked I think we would know by now. I think UV and dosing n and p will help.

 

[saltyhog]

We have a whole thread on dosing metro for dinos. It only makes them lethargic. It was deemed a failed approach.

Yeah I saw that. Was just wondering if anyone had any insight as to why it isn't effective. That, I guess would be a nearly impossible question to answer without more resources than we would be able to muster as hobbyists.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Yeah I saw that. Was just wondering if anyone had any insight as to why it isn't effective. That, I guess would be a nearly impossible question to answer without more resources than we would be able to muster as hobbyists.

I think it's because they can turn into cysts. It's not a fast enough kill and only alters their environment. Once you add carbon or the meds wear off they come back in full force.

 

[Paullawr]

Yeah I saw that. Was just wondering if anyone had any insight as to why it isn't effective. That, I guess would be a nearly impossible question to answer without more resources than we would be able to muster as hobbyists.

Just as @reeferfoxx said. I did the treatment plan as initially tested by @twillard. Basically metro messes with their DNA and helps stop reproduction. What was found was that around day 21 the dinos encyst to protect themselves. Thus making metro inaffective.
It is an option to. Get an upper hand though and I've done it to weaken them prior a full on assault.

I understood metro to be only 80% effective in clinical conditions anyway by itself so may leave some cells.

There other medicines that may work. Ie one used to treat malaria etc. Without access to those drugs and controlled tests its only speculative.

 

[Paullawr]

Getting home and made some test under my poor microscope and thats what I see

Do you think its ostreopsis? I see it diferent, my tank looks the same today

If its ostreopsis its messed up Jolanta. Unless its encyst. As I've never seen a cyst cell of ostreopsis I couldn't say for sure.

Is it moving or dormant?

 

[taricha]

Yeah I saw that. Was just wondering if anyone had any insight as to why it isn't effective. That, I guess would be a nearly impossible question to answer without more resources than we would be able to muster as hobbyists.

Here's my best attempt to piece things together.
Metro does work on the DNA, but it would seem specifically on the chloroplast DNA for our protists. It is through contact with ferredoxin (one of the electron transport middlemen in photosynthesis) that metronidazole becomes activated. google "metronidazole ferredoxin" for details
It works decently well vs ostreopsis. They were largely reduced for me (and others) for about a 2 week time frame. my photos of ostreopsis wrung out from filter floss in my display over about 2 weeks. After that point in the pictures they began to rebound. They also form cysts under metro treatment in the 2-3 week time frame.

I was curious about high doses of metro vs amphidinium since they don't have armor, and we don't know of them forming cysts in our systems - may make them vulnerable.
So I tested beakers of amphidinium somewhere around 6x the label metro dose for 2 or 3 times as many days of doses as recommended. Likely well in excess of 10x label concentration was eventually acheived. What I found was chloroplasts were badly damaged, pigmentation disappeared almost entirely. See pics/vids here
Amazingly, the amphidinium didn't care. They continued over 2 weeks with no drop in population and no decrease in activity. Clearly they could still meet their energy demands with totally compromised chloroplasts. Sounds like they switched to heterotrophy - eating bacteria.

Similar effects have been found in other photosynthetic organisms. These guys hit fern spores with metro.
"The inhibition of cell division is accompanied by a loss of chlorophyll and by severe changes in the ultra-structure of the chloroplasts."

An interesting aside/complication is that some photosynthetic organisms can make a substitute for ferredoxin called flavodoxin that does the same job but doesn't use Iron - so it's helpful under conditions of Iron deprivation. These organisms without ferredoxin avoid the harmful effects of metronidazole.
A couple of papers [pdf] note that symbiodinium dinos - the zooxanthellae in our coral can make the flavodoxin when they have to. This may explain why we aren't killing our corals with metro dosing. Metro penetrates tissues pretty well - I don't believe it's likely the coral can keep it out.

That same paper also found that a strain of amphidinium makes flavodoxin too. So maybe that's why the amphidinium didn't suffer the population decline under metro that ostreopsis did, and perhaps the change in chloroplast and cell pigmentation in amphidinium happened as the cell switched over to flavodoxin instead of ferredoxin. or maybe the difference in ostreopsis decline vs amphidinium not decline was amphidinium ability to go to heterotrophy. Other sources have found better evidence for heterotrophy in amphidinium than ostreopsis.

Another side note - metronidazole has also been used to just indiscriminately wipe out ciliates and protists of all sorts. But the doses involved there (100ppm) are even an order of magnitude higher than my metro overdose I tested, and like 100x the label dosage on metro for SW tanks. I suspect that involves a different mechanism entirely, and would be very detrimental to a reef tank.

I dunno how much of that you actually wanted, but that's about as deep as I could go on metro. As usual, those dino %&!$s are too clever.

 

[Paullawr]

Here's my best attempt to piece things together.
Metro does work on the DNA, but it would seem specifically on the chloroplast DNA for our protists. It is through contact with ferredoxin (one of the electron transport middlemen in photosynthesis) that metronidazole becomes activated. google "metronidazole ferredoxin" for details
It works decently well vs ostreopsis. They were largely reduced for me (and others) for about a 2 week time frame. my photos of ostreopsis wrung out from filter floss in my display over about 2 weeks. After that point in the pictures they began to rebound. They also form cysts under metro treatment in the 2-3 week time frame.

I was curious about high doses of metro vs amphidinium since they don't have armor, and we don't know of them forming cysts in our systems - may make them vulnerable.
So I tested beakers of amphidinium somewhere around 6x the label metro dose for 2 or 3 times as many days of doses as recommended. Likely well in excess of 10x label concentration was eventually acheived. What I found was chloroplasts were badly damaged, pigmentation disappeared almost entirely. See pics/vids here
Amazingly, the amphidinium didn't care. They continued over 2 weeks with no drop in population and no decrease in activity. Clearly they could still meet their energy demands with totally compromised chloroplasts. Sounds like they switched to heterotrophy - eating bacteria.

Similar effects have been found in other photosynthetic organisms. These guys hit fern spores with metro.
"The inhibition of cell division is accompanied by a loss of chlorophyll and by severe changes in the ultra-structure of the chloroplasts."

An interesting aside/complication is that some photosynthetic organisms can make a substitute for ferredoxin called flavodoxin that does the same job but doesn't use Iron - so it's helpful under conditions of Iron deprivation. These organisms without ferredoxin avoid the harmful effects of metronidazole.
A couple of papers [pdf] note that symbiodinium dinos - the zooxanthellae in our coral can make the flavodoxin when they have to. This may explain why we aren't killing our corals with metro dosing. Metro penetrates tissues pretty well - I don't believe it's likely the coral can keep it out.

That same paper also found that a strain of amphidinium makes flavodoxin too. So maybe that's why the amphidinium didn't suffer the population decline under metro that ostreopsis did, and perhaps the change in chloroplast and cell pigmentation in amphidinium happened as the cell switched over to flavodoxin instead of ferredoxin. or maybe the difference in ostreopsis decline vs amphidinium not decline was amphidinium ability to go to heterotrophy. Other sources have found better evidence for heterotrophy in amphidinium than ostreopsis.

Another side note - metronidazole has also been used to just indiscriminately wipe out ciliates and protists of all sorts. But the doses involved there (100ppm) are even an order of magnitude higher than my metro overdose I tested, and like 100x the label dosage on metro for SW tanks. I suspect that involves a different mechanism entirely, and would be very detrimental to a reef tank.

I dunno how much of that you actually wanted, but that's about as deep as I could go on metro. As usual, those dino %&!$s are too clever.

Brilliant explanation.

And yes they are smart cookies alright.

 

[taricha]

Ok I have to say for the first time an approach to battle my Dinos sounds waaaay to over my head and complicated for me to endeavor.

I'll post simplified instructions for trying Si for this kind. I just thought the paper details were interesting.

For Large Cell Amphidinium only, anyone wanting to try dosing Silica to have diatoms outcompete the dinos as outlined in this paper previously discussed.

Brightwell SpongeXcel silicate source
Salifert Si test kit

I'm going to presume a 10 gal tank with 10ppm No3 = 2.25 ppm N

"1 drop per gallon of water increases ionic silica concentration by ~0.20 ppm."
Test (guessing zero Si)
day 1&2 - 5 drops (.20ppm cumulative Si)
Test (guessing zero Si)
days 3,4,5,6 - 10 drops (1.0 ppm cumulative Si)
Test (guessing some small amount Si)
days 7,8,9 - 16 drops (0.32 ppm per day, 2.0 ppm cumulative Si)
Test (no idea what it'll show at this point)

When It says "Test" I'd check for diatom growth, overall tank health, Si and N and P to see consumption by the tank to see if it's shifting.
If the Si keeps getting eaten up immediately, with no signs in tank changes, I'd continue upping drops by +5 drops per 10 gal every 3 days.
If something is happening like a shift toward noticeable diatom bloom, then I'd hold dose steady for a few days and monitor the relative amounts of diatoms/dinos.
If Si accumulates (I doubt, but possible) wait and see what happens around 0.5ppm Si for a few days. This is approximately the paper's Si levels.
If after a few days of monitoring at 0.5ppm Si, the dino growth is still much more significant than diatoms, then I'd continue upping the dose by +5 drops per 10 gal every 3 days, up to 1.5-2ppm Si then I'd hold/back off the dose. I wouldn't attempt to exceed around 2.25 ppm Si which is 1:1 Si:N at 10ppm NO3.
I suspect the system will start producing lots of diatoms well before you ramp up to a sustained 1:1 Si:N at 10ppm NO3.

 

[zachxlutz]

For Large Cell Amphidinium only, anyone wanting to try dosing Silica to have diatoms outcompete the dinos as outlined in this paper previously discussed.

Brightwell SpongeXcel silicate source
Salifert Si test kit

I'm going to presume a 10 gal tank with 10ppm No3 = 2.25 ppm N

"1 drop per gallon of water increases ionic silica concentration by ~0.20 ppm."
Test (guessing zero Si)
day 1&2 - 5 drops (.20ppm cumulative Si)
Test (guessing zero Si)
days 3,4,5,6 - 10 drops (1.0 ppm cumulative Si)
Test (guessing some small amount Si)
days 7,8,9 - 16 drops (0.32 ppm per day, 2.0 ppm cumulative Si)
Test (no idea what it'll show at this point)

When It says "Test" I'd check for diatom growth, overall tank health, Si and N and P to see consumption by the tank to see if it's shifting.
If the Si keeps getting eaten up immediately, with no signs in tank changes, I'd continue upping drops by +5 drops per 10 gal every 3 days.
If something is happening like a shift toward noticeable diatom bloom, then I'd hold dose steady for a few days and monitor the relative amounts of diatoms/dinos.
If Si accumulates (I doubt, but possible) wait and see what happens around 0.5ppm Si for a few days. This is approximately the paper's Si levels.
If after a few days of monitoring at 0.5ppm Si, the dino growth is still much more significant than diatoms, then I'd continue upping the dose by +5 drops per 10 gal every 3 days, up to 1.5-2ppm Si then I'd hold/back off the dose. I wouldn't attempt to exceed around 2.25 ppm Si which is 1:1 Si:N at 10ppm NO3.
I suspect the system will start producing lots of diatoms well before you ramp up to a sustained 1:1 Si:N at 10ppm NO3.

I'm SUPER interested in giving this a try and this post just sealed the deal. I'll order this today and give it a shot. I'm going to need to get some snails to deal with diatoms since I still haven't restocked my tank with snails after the great snail dino-plague of 2017. What are some suggestions of snails to deal with the resulting diatoms?

 

[Jolanta]

If its ostreopsis its messed up Jolanta. Unless its encyst. As I've never seen a cyst cell of ostreopsis I couldn't say for sure.

Is it moving or dormant?

Its not moving and Im not sure if its ostreopsis couse it looks a little diferent. I made water change yesterday and we will see.

 

[Paullawr]

Its not moving and Im not sure if its ostreopsis couse it looks a little diferent. I made water change yesterday and we will see.

I agree its odd....

 

[Paullawr]

Its not moving and Im not sure if its ostreopsis couse it looks a little diferent. I made water change yesterday and we will see.

10th post down by @taricha
Shows cysts short term following stress and long term ready to germinate in warmer months for example.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...ble-cure-follow-along-and-see.253917/page-156

Those cells look very different unless it's my eyes.

 

[Jolanta]

10th post down by @taricha
Shows cysts short term following stress and long term ready to germinate in warmer months for example.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...ble-cure-follow-along-and-see.253917/page-156

Those cells look very different unless it's my eyes.

I cant find the post with photos you are saying