Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Jeff Miotke]

I have been dealing with what I believe are dinoflagellates for some time. I had them beat back for awhile but in last couple of weeks they have been spreading fast. I picked up a microscope and after looking at others photos think they are most like amphidinium but would like your take. Here is some photos i took with a iphone at 400x.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I'd say that's pretty close.

Here'a motion pic
https://photos.app.goo.gl/cPXhShCDtYu1VyTy2

I see at least two different kind. Coolia being one of them.

 

[Bebow]

This thread is not where I had hoped to spend several hours reading but here I am and very grateful there are reefers here to help me through this mess. So first, thank you for spending your time helping others!
My tank is a one year old 180 mixed reef with a 40 gallon custom sump. It is basically a reboot of a 125 with a DIY 20 gallon sump. That tank would grow anything I put in it and the corals where leaving no room for the Fish to swim! This tank has not been as successful...yet. Fish consist of a couple of tangs and foxface then 6 other smaller Fish so I would say it’s under stocked, 15 or so various snails, a few of the cerith have disappeared , and maybe 6 or 7 bluelegged hermits which I think several have died here lately. I know I just lost a fighting conch that I’d had for 6 months.
Dino’s started maybe 2 months ago, I thought it was diatoms coming back... They evolved into a thick gooey mat with the bubbles before I diagnosed them as Dino’s. Tried a 48 hour total blackout with cardboard but of course they started coming back a week later. I know now that was not long enough. I lost 2 acros and have 2 more near death from the blackout and my alkalinity bouncing all over the place. I’m a little confused as to what is a good game plan. I was running bio-pellets but have remove the reactor, don’t like them anyway as I’ve had nothing but issues since starting them. I’m not sure which strain Dino I have but I do have a microscope and have some video of the critters. I need help IDing them so I can come up with a plan of attack.
Need to add my N is at 2ppm P is .16 raising pH slowly, it’s in 8.3 to 8.4 and alkalinity was at 10.

Sandbed today

 

[taricha]

I have been dealing with what I believe are dinoflagellates for some time. I had them beat back for awhile but in last couple of weeks they have been spreading fast. I picked up a microscope and after looking at others photos think they are most like amphidinium but would like your take.

Agree with amphidinium.

 

[taricha]

I’m not sure which strain Dino I have but I do have a microscope and have some video of the critters. I need help IDing them so I can come up with a plan of attack.

Amphidinium here also.

 

[Paullawr]

Yes it's our favourite Amphidinium

 

[Paullawr]

Taricha likes Amphidinium well maybe like is a strong word...

 

[Paullawr]

This thread is not where I had hoped to spend several hours reading but here I am and very grateful there are reefers here to help me through this mess. So first, thank you for spending your time helping others!
My tank is a one year old 180 mixed reef with a 40 gallon custom sump. It is basically a reboot of a 125 with a DIY 20 gallon sump. That tank would grow anything I put in it and the corals where leaving no room for the Fish to swim! This tank has not been as successful...yet. Fish consist of a couple of tangs and foxface then 6 other smaller Fish so I would say it’s under stocked, 15 or so various snails, a few of the cerith have disappeared , and maybe 6 or 7 bluelegged hermits which I think several have died here lately. I know I just lost a fighting conch that I’d had for 6 months.
Dino’s started maybe 2 months ago, I thought it was diatoms coming back... They evolved into a thick gooey mat with the bubbles before I diagnosed them as Dino’s. Tried a 48 hour total blackout with cardboard but of course they started coming back a week later. I know now that was not long enough. I lost 2 acros and have 2 more near death from the blackout and my alkalinity bouncing all over the place. I’m a little confused as to what is a good game plan. I was running bio-pellets but have remove the reactor, don’t like them anyway as I’ve had nothing but issues since starting them. I’m not sure which strain Dino I have but I do have a microscope and have some video of the critters. I need help IDing them so I can come up with a plan of attack.
Need to add my N is at 2ppm P is .16 raising pH slowly, it’s in 8.3 to 8.4 and alkalinity was at 10.

Sandbed today

Hard to be sure but Id say sanded is 1.5-2inches thick?

I'd be looking to remove and give it a good rinse in fresh water first or remove and leave out whilst treatment commence. Sure there will be people who disagree but Amphidinium likes sand.

 

[Bebow]

Amphidinium here also.

Thanks for the quick response!

The sample I took from some rock had a lot more of pink round cells mixed in. Curious as what they are.
W

Hard to be sure but Id say sanded is 1.5-2inches thick?

I'd be looking to remove and give it a good rinse in fresh water first or remove and leave out whilst treatment commence. Sure there will be people who disagree but Amphidinium likes sand.

Thanks!
I think the sandbed will go this weekend, what ever it takes to get rid of this stuff.

 

[Paullawr]

Thanks for the quick response!

The sample I took from some rock had a lot more of pink round cells mixed in. Curious as what they are.
W

Thanks!
I think the sandbed will go this weekend, what ever it takes to get rid of this stuff.

Good call. That will help massively. You may find some spread to rocks so be mindful of this.

Then I'd get on track with nutrient balancing (or during).

I'd also nudge taricha for help with amp. Sure taricha has battled in own tank.

 

[Paullawr]

Thanks for the quick response!

The sample I took from some rock had a lot more of pink round cells mixed in. Curious as what they are.
W

Thanks!
I think the sandbed will go this weekend, what ever it takes to get rid of this stuff.

No idea on the pick round cells. Not moving though so that is a bonus! Probably an algae of sorts.

 

[Bebow]

Good call. That will help massively. You may find some spread to rocks so be mindful of this.

Then I'd get on track with nutrient balancing (or during).

I'd also nudge taricha for help with amp. Sure taricha has battled in own tank.

I’m sure the sand is loaded with nutrients and junk anyway. Removing the biopellets reactor should help there, that was a constant carbon source. I also decreased the light cycle in the refugium and the main tank. I have 3 Kissel A360 that I turned the white down and decreased the on time, also have 2 60” T5s that I’m leaving off. I started dosing phyto-plankton food which is nitrogen and phosphate fertilizer. Looking into a UV sterilizer, have on on my freshwater 90 but it’s 9 watt. Looks like I’ll need 90 watts minimum. I set my Apex up to dose soda ash to try and maintain a 8.4 to 8.5 pH but we will see how that works, I’ve always had a pH problem with this tank. Kalkwasser in the topoff was barely holding low 8s, so I brought the CO2 scrubber back online in the skimmer air intake. what a list of stuff! Did I miss anything? I’m open to suggestions....

 

[Beardo]

I’m sure the sand is loaded with nutrients and junk anyway. Removing the biopellets reactor should help there, that was a constant carbon source. I also decreased the light cycle in the refugium and the main tank. I have 3 Kissel A360 that I turned the white down and decreased the on time, also have 2 60” T5s that I’m leaving off. I started dosing phyto-plankton food which is nitrogen and phosphate fertilizer. Looking into a UV sterilizer, have on on my freshwater 90 but it’s 9 watt. Looks like I’ll need 90 watts minimum. I set my Apex up to dose soda ash to try and maintain a 8.4 to 8.5 pH but we will see how that works, I’ve always had a pH problem with this tank. Kalkwasser in the topoff was barely holding low 8s, so I brought the CO2 scrubber back online in the skimmer air intake. what a list of stuff! Did I miss anything? I’m open to suggestions....

Since you are dealing with amphidinium I wouldn't bother with the UV sterilizer. UV works great for dinos that enter the water column but large cell amphidinium isn't one if them.
I personally didn't have much luck with increased pH levels (as high as 8.70) so don't be overly disappointed if it doesn't work.

Sandbed removal should help, along with maintaining nutrient levels, physical removal (siphoning dinos out during water changes or siphoning through a low micron filter) and patience. Amphidinium have been the most stubborn for me.
On a positive note they seem to be lower on the toxicity scale and don't have the same impact to livestock some of the others do.

 

[mcarroll]

I started dosing phyto-plankton food which is nitrogen and phosphate fertilizer.

Ditto everything Beardo said above. Given the lack of success on this fron by anyone (AFAIK) it's hard to endorse messing with your pH except out of a pure spirit of experimentation. (I.e. you're OK if it ends badly)

Plus I'd nix the phyto. Use discrete PO4 and NO3 fertilizers for this instead.

Food sources like phyto will raise more nutrients than you're trying to raise – it's not just N and P. Plus the time delay waiting for food to break down all the way into dissolved nutrients, plus the fact that it is so indirect (via the microbial food web in your tank) that it may actually not be helpful to your effort. All the nutrients that may be left at the end are nutrients you're not even low on. That's mostly just a good way to get more cyano than you're already likely to get on the way out of this.

2¢

 

[cchomistek]

I am dealing with the dreaded amphidinium myself. I have two bags of new sand that I am contemplating changing all of my sand out with. Would it be wise to get rid of as much of the sand that I can and siphon off the rocks and leave the tank bare bottom for the time being while I battle this and then add the new sand later. I am concerned if I add the new sand with the issue still ongoing that I will just seed the new sand with these uglies.

Any thoughts? Has anyone had success completely changing the sand bed to try and eliminate these jerks. Now the amphidium is also on my back glass and on my rocks quite a bit aswell just keep in mind.

 

[mcarroll]

I am dealing with the dreaded amphidinium myself.

Sand bed replacement alone probably won't help, but in concert with the other base guidance here it could.

Can you remind me what else you're already doing to help the tank out?

 

[cchomistek]

Well I already have high nutrients and green hair algae is taking over on the back glass and some of the rocks. Phosphate at 0.1 and nitrate at 15. I have been siphoning the sand and what is on the rocks through a 5 micron filter. That has not changed much. Sand bed and rocks covered in a day or two afterwards. Should I be shutting the white t5s off or does it not matter much on lights cycle at all? Also reduced blues time aswell??

The reason I am wondering about the sand is it was left undisturbed for about 4 years basically with lots of nutrients and in the water thus alot of dutritus is built up. I have been siphoning it with my water changes and what not for the last 4 months but just wondering if a change out would help. If it will not change anything I guess maybe no point.

 

[mcarroll]

The reason I am wondering about the sand is it was left undisturbed for about 4 years basically with lots of nutrients and in the water thus alot of dutritus is built up.

Vacuuming the sand (if possible) might help a lot in that case. Replacement could as well, but that's quite a bit more severe unless you just want the sand bed gone anyway.

So you have amphidinium and hair algae both growing "fast" or blooming at the same time? Strange combo. Lucky you! ;Clown

Any chance you can get a sample of the hair algae under a scope or at least post a pic?

Did your CUC survive the initial bloom of dino's or are you still waiting to replace them or...? If any survived, how do they do on the hair algae? (Try placing one or more snails directly on a patch.) Do they seem to be eating anything?

 

[cchomistek]

I have only one astrea snail left after the die off. I had a seahare but rehomed him. I could possibly get a picture of the green hair algae under a scope. What are you looking for? What are you thinking you may find?

I do like the sand and have been vaccuming. That is why I thought possibly replacing the large majority may be an option.

 

[mcarroll]

I have only one astrea snail left after the die off. I had a seahare but rehomed him. I could possibly get a picture of the green hair algae under a scope. What are you looking for? What are you thinking you may find?

I do like the sand and have been vaccuming. That is why I thought possibly replacing the large majority may be an option.

Just to see if we can tell what type...or at least rule out what it's not.

How have the results looked when you vacuum the sand? Nasty? Or mostly clear?