Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Paullawr]

From what you described afterwards, it sounds like you didn't beat 5+ strains in 24 hours. You basically performed an elaborate personal attack on them over the course of one and a half months with a tank nuke in the middle.... I hate these things too, I would have done the same.



It sounds like the dinos started dying off a while ago after some of your snails died from the toxins. Both of which will add nutrients. The further increase in nutrients increases the dino death and adds even more to the nutrients. I believe this is why people are running skimmers and socks. To help get the nutrient sources out of the water, i.e. dead dinos and snails. I recommend skimming if you have one, add a sock which will probably need to be emptied multiple times a day until the dinos (dead and alive) get filtered out for the most part, and run GAC to take out the dino toxins so your CUC can get back to work and stop dying.

Basically.... Yes I'd honestly gone past the point of no return. It was jack it all in which better half wanted me. To do or try one last ditch attempt to batter the crap out of them. PH swings do massively work but at a cost and something I cannot recommend especially on here.

 

[Alitoo.81]

Hi, can someone identify this one for me, please? Also, what is the best way to help get rid of it? I think its ostreopsis. I have UV but did not installed it yet, should I? Also, do I need to raise po4 and no3 with this one? any advice on how to proceed is accepted. Thank You

 

[Alitoo.81]

can it be Symbiodinium (expelled Zooxanthellae)?

 

[Beardo]

Hi, can someone identify this one for me, please? Also, what is the best way to help get rid of it? I think its ostreopsis. I have UV but did not installed it yet, should I? Also, do I need to raise po4 and no3 with this one? any advice on how to proceed is accepted. Thank You

You are correct on Ostreopsis. I would definitely install the UV along with maintaining nutruent levels defined in this thread. What size tank an UV do you have?

 

[Beardo]

Hi All,
Recently I have lost quite a few snails and now a couple acros are experiencing STN. I did notice some small bubbles on my rock (only on rock) with the dreaded snot look coming off of them. Fun part, I finally had enough reason to get a scope. Bad part, sure look like Dino's to me. That being said, I am definitely not an expert at this stuff, so looking for help with an ID and then open to suggestions for treatment ideas. I have a new RSR 350 waiting to get wet and want to do my best to keep dino's from becoming a problem in that tank as I transfer stuff over (no hurry for the transfer). Interesting thing to note was that I hadn't seen any sign of Dino's until I moved my current tank across the room (drained water, slid the tank on pads, filled it...15 min max). Nitrates I finally got to 2 (red sea and salifert), but have a tough time keeping them above 0. Hanna shows 0 on ULR. Tank has quite a bit of red turf algae (sucks) and a couple small spots where cyano forms once in a while (mainly in overflow). I attached some pics I took with the scope. I have seen some swim in the "tethered circle", but those seem to stop moving very quickly on the slide. Then the others (rounder) seem to swim very freely and don't slow down for quite a while. Guessing I am dealing with more than one type. I can upload videos or more pics if needed. Any input is welcomed!
Thanks,
Kevin

The darker round dinos in the 3rd picture look to be Coolia and you already have an id on the Ostreopsis. UV is effective on both.

 

[Alitoo.81]

The pictures are from the same samples :S how can they be 2 dinos? How much do I need to raise no3 and po3? I have 20ppm no3 and 0,03 po4 (was 0.00). I will start blind feeding frozen food at night and feed more the fish. It a big tank 4000 litters and the UV is rated for 5000l. I am dosing daily 90ml of phosphorus. Not a fan of ULST but there is not much fish inside and that is why nutrients are low. The system is new, 6 months old and only 2 month with fish.

 

[Alitoo.81]

The darker round dinos in the 3rd picture look to be Coolia and you already have an id on the Ostreopsis. UV is effective on both.

The pictures are from the same samples :S how can they be 2 dinos? How much do I need to raise no3 and po3? I have 20ppm no3 and 0,03 po4 (was 0.00). I will start blind feeding frozen food at night and feed more the fish. Its a big tank 4000 litters and the UV is rated for 5000l I will make it work only at night. I am dosing daily 90ml of phosphorus. Not a fan of ULST but there is not much fish inside and that is why Phosphate is low. The system is new, 6 months old and only 2 month with fish. Do bacteria dose help? I have one that eats detritus (Biogrow)

sorry double reply

 

[Beardo]

The pictures are from the same samples :S how can they be 2 dinos? How much do I need to raise no3 and po3? I have 20ppm no3 and 0,03 po4 (was 0.00). I will start blind feeding frozen food at night and feed more the fish. Its a big tank 4000 litters and the UV is rated for 5000l I will make it work only at night. I am dosing daily 90ml of phosphorus. Not a fan of ULST but there is not much fish inside and that is why Phosphate is low. The system is new, 6 months old and only 2 month with fish. Do bacteria dose help? I have one that eats detritus (Biogrow)

sorry double reply

My comment about 2 types of dinos was directed at someone else, I only see Ostreopsis in your picture. That said, it is not uncommon to have more than 1 type of dinos. I personally found at least 7 in my tank.
As far as nutrient targets, nitrate around 10 ppm and phosphates at 0.1. You are already there on nitrates. I would just up the phosphate dosing and not go overboard on feeding.
UV was very effective on Ostreaopsis in my experience, as long as it is correctly sized and appropriate flow rates. I personally run UV 24x7.

 

[AcroJack]

Possibly Prorocentrum but cannot be 100%. I'd ask. Taricha personally.

I can tell you when I siphon it out it makes me light headed and a bit nauseous. I bleach all the filter socks to get rid of it, but wow!
I'd love to hear what @taricha thinks too. I can take more pics if needed as well.

 

[AcroJack]

Possibly Prorocentrum but cannot be 100%. I'd ask. Taricha personally.

I should also note that I"ve seen some Ostreopsis on the slides too. Those are probably in check via the large UV we run, but I bring it up as this stuff doesn't move that I can see and is much smaller than Ostreopsis on the slide. Even at 400x they are tiny.

 

[Paullawr]

can it be Symbiodinium (expelled Zooxanthellae)?

Sadly we are hardly ever that lucky. Though occasionally we spot it. Symbiodinium is tiny compared to some of the monsters..

I can tell you when I siphon it out it makes me light headed and a bit nauseous. I bleach all the filter socks to get rid of it, but wow!
I'd love to hear what @taricha thinks too. I can take more pics if needed as well.

Be careful buddy. As I said on one of my earlier posts people do not realise how deadly the toxins can be.
Ostreopsis contains palytoxin. Same thing we have in our beloved palythoa.
For those that didn't realise but palytoxin is the most lethal toxins on earth with no antedote.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palytoxin

Note in the above article it references inhaling. Now think of it this way. Any spray from you tank could be inhaled and if you have an outbreak of dinoflagellates they will be in the water column and very likely in that spray.

 

[Beardo]

I should also note that I"ve seen some Ostreopsis on the slides too. Those are probably in check via the large UV we run, but I bring it up as this stuff doesn't move that I can see and is much smaller than Ostreopsis on the slide. Even at 400x they are tiny.

Most Prorocentrum species are in the same size range as Ostreopsis.

 

[James Barton]

Guys I'm at a dead end right now. Still working on a microscope atm but I'm sitting here now attempting to manually remove what I can and I can't seem to get it.

I turned off my pumps and first tried siphoning with a turkey baster. When I try to siphon it, the strings turn to dust is the best way I could describe it and I'm not able to get much. I then tried my gravel vac and the stringy stuff balls up and just falls back out like it weighs too much. Right with the pumps off there is a lot of the Brown gunk suspended in the water column and some even floating. While the stringy stuff on the sand has now turned to what looks like dust now. I've removed my lps corals and anemone to another tank since they didn't seem like they were doing too well.

 

[tonymacc]

no3 and po4 pretty much the same as yesterday (no3 between 8-12, po4 at .08) have upped the dose by 1ml so will wait see what tomorrows results bring.

Oh, and my microscope is ****e btw, didn't even achieve focus *** so sending it back and will get another from somewhere else.

 

[Paullawr]

Guys I'm at a dead end right now. Still working on a microscope atm but I'm sitting here now attempting to manually remove what I can and I can't seem to get it.

I turned off my pumps and first tried siphoning with a turkey baster. When I try to siphon it, the strings turn to dust is the best way I could describe it and I'm not able to get much. I then tried my gravel vac and the stringy stuff balls up and just falls back out like it weighs too much. Right with the pumps off there is a lot of the Brown gunk suspended in the water column and some even floating. While the stringy stuff on the sand has now turned to what looks like dust now. I've removed my lps corals and anemone to another tank since they didn't seem like they were doing too well.

If you cannot get it James don’t stress it. My way of cleaning during treatment was toothbrush held on the siphon with elastic bands. Brush gently and suck out the slime into a bucket. A small water change can be a good thing when it’s really south.

I will be straight up, I would say with almost certaintity you have ostreopsis. The vale when the pump is off the snot. It’s a give away. Even if it is another strain it’s in the water column so I suggest hooking up a good UV sooner rather than later. I’d personally run it whilst doing an entire three day blackout. Encourage the cells in to water column.

 

[James Barton]

Thanks paul. I'll report after I get this UV going. My fish should be fine during all this and the blackout right?

 

[taricha]

This post got long. lots of interesting stuff here.

Anyway, this time around, I'm dosing both PO4 (seachem phosphorous) and NO3 (seachem nitrogen), but the dinos seems to be more stubborn. I had coolia before, but have not ID'ed the latest outbreak.

So my question, is using seachem nitrogen ok? It's the easiest thing to get, and I'm intimidated by mixing a concoction of stump remover.

Also, would running a 10 micron sock in the drain be effective? Do dino cells float to the top where it goes into the overflow?

Do dino toxins bother zoas? Or is something else ******* them off?

Please do ID, assume nothing until you see it under the scope.
I'd love to give a blanket thumbs up on Seachem Flourish Nitrogen, and I should have caught this before, but I just looked it up and it's half potassium nitrate (great), and half Urea. Urea after it goes to ammonium is great for plants and green algae, but unfortunately Dinos have been shown to be really good at direct urea uptake, so we need to consider Seachem Flourish Nitrogen as a nitrogen source to avoid. (If any want to dig in on details of where this idea of preferred forms of N & P comes from see post #159)
Best stick to Nitrate that green algae is good at uptaking, and that dinos are bad at.

for me, 4grams of KNO3 (spectracide stump removed) into my 70 gallons water gives a 10ppm NO3 boost. Lots of helpful people in this thread can calc a dose for your system, or point you to a calculator.

If you have a significant bloom of one of the common species that goes into the water, it may clog a 10 micron sock fairly fast, so yes it works if you can keep up with the emptying.

Dino toxins and associated biotoxins can bother any and everything. Run GAC when any signs of toxins.

So how high is too high in terms of NO3 and PO4 levels? Going back to an earlier post, I have gone from undetectable levels to really overshooting my targets. I haven't dosed anything in about 2 weeks now and today NO3 is 25 ppm and PO4 is roughly 0.3 ppm (calculated from a Hanna ULR phosphorous reader). I can't quite figure out why the levels continue to rise without manual dosing when previously my tank was essentially starved of nutrients. Dino still persists, however it is slowly getting better. I am keeping up with manual siphoning using a 10 micron sock so I think that is also helping. I wouldn't be that concerned with the numbers except it seems some coral are doing very poorly which I feel is due to the extremely elevated PO4 levels. What is also confusing is the fact that even with these high values, I don't have a ton of appreciable algae growth. There's some fuzz on the back walls but thats about it. From my understanding, the goal is to get some algae growth and increase biodiversity to outcompete the dino and strike up a better balance in the tank. I'm trying to figure out if I have some other kind of limiting factor to getting some algae in the tank, or if I just need to give it more time.

The continued rise (aside from invisible dieoff which is always possible) is because we can only test for inorganic P & N. So organic forms are undetectable, and as they are slowly being broken down biologically into inorganic PO4 and NO3, they then show up in the test.
Lots of people fret about high P hurting sps, see my last post #2078 for why that's misguided. Acro growth was fastest at high levels we aren't recommending anyone shoot for - PO4 0.50 (but with lower calcification as expected), speculating here - it seems much more likely that what's hurting the corals is undetectable harmful large organic molecules synthesized by aquarium habitants - Dinos are prime suspect - but examples of these are too numerous to name.
I'd say you have a limiting factor since elevated P and N shows no algae growth - I vote for water changes, and then yes - it takes time.

I attached some pics I took with the scope. I have seen some swim in the "tethered circle"

Best description of ostreopsis motion!

That said, it is not uncommon to have more than 1 type of dinos. I personally found at least 7 in my tank.

This and others similar accounts - I had 3 kinds at once in my first outbreak - are the strongest evidence that encountering dino cells is not Rare in the hobby. If a single bad strain was rare, then the odds of multiples would be amazingly low, yet it's pretty common.

I can tell you when I siphon it out it makes me light headed and a bit nauseous. I bleach all the filter socks to get rid of it, but wow!
I'd love to hear what taricha thinks too. I can take more pics if needed as well.

I should also note that I"ve seen some Ostreopsis on the slides too. Those are probably in check via the large UV we run, but I bring it up as this stuff doesn't move that I can see and is much smaller than Ostreopsis on the slide. Even at 400x they are tiny.

WOW. Amazing post.
First: most dino toxins are neurotoxins. Breathing difficulties, lightheadedness and nausea are among the reported symptoms. don't treat it lightly - I've also seen discussion of associated mental health affects with more severe cases of some of these toxins.
Do you notice a strong smell? Others have reported a "dino smell"
without risking any further exposure, do you think that you can say whether the problematic toxin is concentrated to the areas with these tiny golden guys, or more generally within the system? Because Ostreopsis are known to be toxic. The tiny ones no one knows much about.
I'll look through some stuff and try to collect a few reports together to make a separate post just on these tiny guys.
The best pics of these I've seen are from NCreefguy.

I've tentatively been calling these symbiodinium-like, because of their similarity to zooxanthellae, but the more I look at these and actual zooxanthellae, the less I like that ID.

I'm leaning more towards chrysophytes these days.

@mcarroll have you seen anything about chrysophyte accounts and treatment to suggest we should handle these differently from dinos?

 

[taricha]

Its a big tank 4000 litters and the UV is rated for 5000l I will make it work only at night. I am dosing daily 90ml of phosphorus.

This will be an interesting test. So far we've just presumed a magic number of UV Watts per gallon. Never tried to extrapolate to a huge system. Can you list or link the UV model so we can see specs?

 

[Paullawr]

Thanks paul. I'll report after I get this UV going. My fish should be fine during all this and the blackout right?

Fish and any corals will be totally unharmed. Blackouts as we know now don’t kill dinos but this may give you some breathing space

 

[James Barton]

Fish and any corals will be totally unharmed. Blackouts as we know now don’t kill dinos but this may give you some breathing space

But I'm talking doing the blackout while running the uv.