Dealing with Velvet....

[deerhunter06]

So i have a 180 gallon with velvet running rampant. I find if I remove a fish and place them into my 75g quarantine they stop eating and die. I think the act of being moved and catching them just really stresses them out. I pulled my sailfin last night moved him over to hospital tank and he hasnt ate all day. I decided i was going to dose peroxide to display so I moved him back and he immediately started eating like a pig like nothing was wrong.

I started thinking, what if i removed all of the rock instead of the fish and dosed copper in the display. Its a bare bottom tank for the most part and maybe this wouldnt stress them as bad as moving them to a smaller tank or moving them at all.. I can remove all the copper from the water after treatment period is up correct? I would disconnect the display water from the sump for the time being to keep my refugium alive and just keep my powerheads in the display for movement. Keep all the rock in a big tub so it stays alive for 6 weeks... so the velvet dies. Then just put it back like nothing ever happened.

Thoughts?

 

[Hungrypede]

Is this a FOWLR or do you have corals?

You say velvet is running rampant - but for how long? If truly rampant I would think most of your fish would have passed already.

Your method sounds like it could work, but has so many factors of going wrong. Copper not being full removed after treating. Cross contamination (you’ll be running 3 tanks; hospital, DT, refugium). All rock removed and fish start acting the same way as they did in your hospital tank. Etc.

If I were in your shoes I’d move the fish to the QT tank and sacrifice some of your DT rock to the QT tank if you think that’ll keep the fish happier. Copper in a display sounds like a last resort.

I’ve dealt with velvet/fallow 3 times years ago. The first time 6 weeks was not enough. Second time 8 weeks was not enough. Third time was 90 days and have been clear since, with all new fish now thoroughly QTed. They say 6 weeks should do the trick but you’re playing a game of patience now and should utilize tried and true methods.

 

[vetteguy53081]

So i have a 180 gallon with velvet running rampant. I find if I remove a fish and place them into my 75g quarantine they stop eating and die. I think the act of being moved and catching them just really stresses them out. I pulled my sailfin last night moved him over to hospital tank and he hasnt ate all day. I decided i was going to dose peroxide to display so I moved him back and he immediately started eating like a pig like nothing was wrong.

I started thinking, what if i removed all of the rock instead of the fish and dosed copper in the display. Its a bare bottom tank for the most part and maybe this wouldnt stress them as bad as moving them to a smaller tank or moving them at all.. I can remove all the copper from the water after treatment period is up correct? I would disconnect the display water from the sump for the time being to keep my refugium alive and just keep my powerheads in the display for movement. Keep all the rock in a big tub so it stays alive for 6 weeks... so the velvet dies. Then just put it back like nothing ever happened.

Thoughts?

Problem with this that once copper is applied to display tank, you will not be able to return rock unless no corals and inverts are intended moving forward. I see and recognize your trait of thought.
Try acclimating the fish into the quarantine tank and assure to match temp and salinity so both environments match. The Velvet, If velvet are flagellates and not protozoans and will be with the display tank and not so much the rock.
How did you determine its velvet and what signs and symptoms are you seeing?
Any pics or videos you can post under white lighting ?

 

[deerhunter06]

Problem with this that once copper is applied to display tank, you will not be able to return rock unless no corals and inverts are intended moving forward. I see and recognize your trait of thought.
Try acclimating the fish into the quarantine tank and assure to match temp and salinity so both environments match. The Velvet, If velvet are flagellates and not protozoans and will be with the display tank and not so much the rock.
How did you determine its velvet and what signs and symptoms are you seeing?
Any pics or videos you can post under white lighting ?

It’s velvet, sheen on the fish and too many dots to count. I’ve lost PT, anthia, and coral
Beauty. Sail fin is 6 inches and really fat, he has it the worst but emperor angel is showing signs now.

I was under the impression I could remove all the copper. I’ll dose peroxide before I remove them all. Trying to catch them in my tank will surely stress them out too much.

Qt tank is a perfect match to display.

 

[deerhunter06]

Is this a FOWLR or do you have corals?

You say velvet is running rampant - but for how long? If truly rampant I would think most of your fish would have passed already.

Your method sounds like it could work, but has so many factors of going wrong. Copper not being full removed after treating. Cross contamination (you’ll be running 3 tanks; hospital, DT, refugium). All rock removed and fish start acting the same way as they did in your hospital tank. Etc.

If I were in your shoes I’d move the fish to the QT tank and sacrifice some of your DT rock to the QT tank if you think that’ll keep the fish happier. Copper in a display sounds like a last resort.

I’ve dealt with velvet/fallow 3 times years ago. The first time 6 weeks was not enough. Second time 8 weeks was not enough. Third time was 90 days and have been clear since, with all new fish now thoroughly QTed. They say 6 weeks should do the trick but you’re playing a game of patience now and should utilize tried and true methods.

I’ve got a couple frags I’m willing to let die. I’ve lost 3 fish with 2 more showing signs of it. I always forget about the 10 foot rule, good point with my sump being right under the display.

 

[Hungrypede]

What helped me catch our fish multiple times was using a piece of egg crate cut to the width and height of the tank. Moved all the rock to one side. Feed on the empty side and slide the egg crate in behind the fish. Should be easy to scoop them with no rocks in the way and minimize stress.

 

[deerhunter06]

What helped me catch our fish multiple times was using a piece of egg crate cut to the width and height of the tank. Moved all the rock to one side. Feed on the empty side and slide the egg crate in behind the fish. Should be easy to scoop them with no rocks in the way and minimize stress.

i have considered that as well. Just after seeing how the sailfin responded. It like certain death for him. I was reading humblefish's peroxide dosing to kill velvet, It doesnt sound bad. You guys have good points. Idk what to do.

I mean its 2023 why has no one found a cure all yet.

 

[vetteguy53081]

i have considered that as well. Just after seeing how the sailfin responded. It like certain death for him. I was reading humblefish's peroxide dosing to kill velvet, It doesnt sound bad. You guys have good points. Idk what to do.

I mean its 2023 why has no one found a cure all yet.

Peroxide is a gamble and rarely used for this and mainly as a bath. Velvet is a flagellate why peroxide is considered but is also an oxidizer and not a medication. If sure as you state you are- Remove fish from main tank and give them a FW dip or bath and then place them into a QT with vigorous aeration provided. Treat the fish in the QT with a copper-based medication. Although many remedies contain the general name as ich or ick treatments, read the box to be sure it targets Oodinium. My choice is coppersafe or copper power at 2.25-2.5 therapuetic level at 80 degrees for a FULL 30 days monitored by a reliable copper test kit such as Hanna Brand (no api brand). Assure the medication you use states treats Oodinum.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It’s velvet, sheen on the fish and too many dots to count. I’ve lost PT, anthia, and coral
Beauty. Sail fin is 6 inches and really fat, he has it the worst but emperor angel is showing signs now.

I was under the impression I could remove all the copper. I’ll dose peroxide before I remove them all. Trying to catch them in my tank will surely stress them out too much.

Qt tank is a perfect match to display.

That sounds more like late stage ich. True velvet rarely shows any spots, and always causes rapid respiration and not feeding, followed by death in a few days. It's academic to some degree though, as copper works for both of them. However, if it IS ich, you could run hypo in your DT and avoid copper contamination issues.

Jay

 

[deerhunter06]

ill grab a pic tonight.
Purple tang looked more like ich to me than velvet. The sailfin looks more like velvet

 

[deerhunter06]

 

[deerhunter06]

None of them are very good I’ll do some more when the lights go out and I can get a flash light on him

 

[deerhunter06]

Ok here ya go

 

[deerhunter06]

@Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081 @Hungrypede what you guys think?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ok here ya goView attachment 3056444View attachment 3056445

Sorry, I've been offline. The sailfin has ich. It could *also* have velvet at the same time, but that is rare. Velvet is going to kill the fish rapidly, usually within 72 hours. Ich will make the fish sick for days longer. With ich you don't see rapid breathing until near the end, while with true velvet, that is the first symptom.

If the fish are breathing slower than 120 gill beats per minutes, and are still eating, then I would say this is just ich.

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

Ok here ya goView attachment 3056444View attachment 3056445

It appears the fish has both and agreed with Jay. While this is unusual in many cases to acquire both, Immediate treatment will be warranted.
In a case like this, while setting up for quarantine and treatment, you can give fish a 5 min freshwater dip for temporary relief BUT if fish is breathing rapid- The dip becomes a risk.
Fish with velvet will typically stay at the surface of the water, or remain in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium. As the disease progresses outwards from the gills, the cysts then become visible on the fins and body. Although these cysts may appear as tiny white dots the size of a grain of salt, like the first sign of Saltwater Ich or White Spot Disease, what sets Oodinium apart from other types of ich is that at this point the fish have the appearance of being coated with what looks like a whitish or tan to golden colored, velvet-like film, thus the name Velvet Disease.
Remove fish from main tank and give them a FW dip or bath and then place them into a QT with vigorous aeration provided. Treat the fish in the QT with a copper-based medication. Although many remedies contain the general name as ich or ick treatments, read the box to be sure it targets Oodinium. My choice is coppersafe or copper power at 2.25-2.5 therapuetic level at 80 degrees for a FULL 30 days monitored by a reliable copper test kit such as Hanna Brand (no api brand). Assure the medication you use states treats Oodinum.

 

[deerhunter06]

Thanks guys, here’s another pic

 

[deerhunter06]

just for my reference what leads you to believe this is both vs just velvet?

 

[deerhunter06]

just for my reference what leads you to believe this is both vs just velvet?

It appears the fish has both and agreed with Jay. While this is unusual in many cases to acquire both, Immediate treatment will be warranted.
In a case like this, while setting up for quarantine and treatment, you can give fish a 5 min freshwater dip for temporary relief BUT if fish is breathing rapid- The dip becomes a risk.
Fish with velvet will typically stay at the surface of the water, or remain in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium. As the disease progresses outwards from the gills, the cysts then become visible on the fins and body. Although these cysts may appear as tiny white dots the size of a grain of salt, like the first sign of Saltwater Ich or White Spot Disease, what sets Oodinium apart from other types of ich is that at this point the fish have the appearance of being coated with what looks like a whitish or tan to golden colored, velvet-like film, thus the name Velvet Disease.
Remove fish from main tank and give them a FW dip or bath and then place them into a QT with vigorous aeration provided. Treat the fish in the QT with a copper-based medication. Although many remedies contain the general name as ich or ick treatments, read the box to be sure it targets Oodinium. My choice is coppersafe or copper power at 2.25-2.5 therapuetic level at 80 degrees for a FULL 30 days monitored by a reliable copper test kit such as Hanna Brand (no api brand). Assure the medication you use states treats Oodinum.

Sorry, I've been offline. The sailfin has ich. It could *also* have velvet at the same time, but that is rare. Velvet is going to kill the fish rapidly, usually within 72 hours. Ich will make the fish sick for days longer. With ich you don't see rapid breathing until near the end, while with true velvet, that is the first symptom.

If the fish are breathing slower than 120 gill beats per minutes, and are still eating, then I would say this is just ich.

Jay

Trying to educate myself here fellas….can you shed anymore light as to why you think it’s both versus one or the other?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I was only saying it could be both because you started the thread saying it was velvet. If you had said, "what is this?" I would have said marine ich. Are the criteria I mentioned (rapid breathing, not eating) absent? If so, you can rule out velvet now.

Jay