Cyanobacteria

[Dburr1014]

I don’t have a rebuttal. I’ll let myself out.

I'm sorry, it was an honest question.

 

[Dom]

Blacking out your tank for a few days will help. Also, reduce the total number of hours your lights are on and reduce lighting intensity after the blackout. You should see and improvement.

 

[Formulator]

I'm sorry, it was an honest question.

Its fair. I was in a bad mood this morning. Honestly I don’t remember what my line of thinking was. I forgot that bioballs and ceramic rings do become nitrate factories. I don’t like to be wrong. Its a character defect. All is good.

 

[blecki]

Ultra low nutrient systems (ULNS) were a fad in the last decade or so, but the hobby as a whole has learned better and moved on (for the most part). Yes, there are successful tanks that run ULN, but these are typically SPS dominant tanks 5+ years established, and even then it is ultra-low not zero.

As a proponent who ran ULNS for many years and now runs between 10 and 20 ppm nitrate usually I have to agree. It wasn't the ULNS part of my reef that was successful. It was the direct sunlight and the microfauna. Running ULNS before the tank is mature just seems to prolong the uglies as things like dino are able to thrive while everything else dies.

But you know if you're feeding the fish there's not 0 of anything. The real variable is, does your reading of 0 mean that the coral is taking up what it needs and none is left over, or does it mean the coral needs more?

My coral QT tank is an ULNS right now...

dose H2O2

IME peroxide does nothing for dinos and might actually make them worse by killing off some competing bacteria.

Just that I’ve observed colors improve after raising nitrates from near zero.

I would say darken but not necessarily improve. There's a fine line between more intense coloring and just turning brown and lighting has a large impact too.

Ceramic rings are considered a nitrate factory. They house bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrite then to nitrate but cannot convert nitrates to a gas to leave the system. So nitrates rise in the aquarium.
If the OP leaves them in, why dose nitrates? Why take them out?
Is it because it takes to long for them to rise?

Presumably if OP has them and is still measuring 0 nitrate they should leave them in and dose, no?

 

[Dburr1014]

This was just posted in another thread.
LOL, they actually quoted Formulator and eeyore in the first post.

Study Reveals How Corals Gain N and P in Darwin’s Paradox | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

An article published in the Journal Nature has found that photosynthetic corals not only host their symbiotic algae, they feed directly on it too, and importantly, it is how they uptake Nitrogen and…

reefbuilders.com

Thread 'Can corals directly consume phosphorus and nitrogen?' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/can-corals-directly-consume-phosphorus-and-nitrogen.1069165/

 

[stoned-reefer83]

Just a suggestion, cleaning those powerheads would probably help kick up a little more flow.

 

[Miami Reef]

they actually quoted Formulator and eeyore in the first post.

Yes, sir. That was me. I enjoy lurking.

 

[Dburr1014]

Yes, sir. That was me. I enjoy lurking.

Me too

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

This was just posted in another thread.
LOL, they actually quoted Formulator and eeyore in the first post.

Study Reveals How Corals Gain N and P in Darwin’s Paradox | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

An article published in the Journal Nature has found that photosynthetic corals not only host their symbiotic algae, they feed directly on it too, and importantly, it is how they uptake Nitrogen and…

reefbuilders.com

Thread 'Can corals directly consume phosphorus and nitrogen?' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/can-corals-directly-consume-phosphorus-and-nitrogen.1069165/

Yes but @Miami Reef took my quote out if context and implied that I replied to something I did not.

 

[Miami Reef]

Yes but @Miami Reef took my quote out if context and implied that I replied to something I did not.

You replied to the same concept. You said corals can directly consume nitrogen and phosphorus, which is incorrect.

You can be snarky all you want. I have you ignored for that reason.

 

[jonnymod]

I’ve seen some super simple tanks by some super simple people that would blow your mind.

My goal. lol

Blacking out your tank for a few days will help. Also, reduce the total number of hours your lights are on and reduce lighting intensity after the blackout. You should see and improvement.

I'm worried about my corals if I black out. I've read have had success with blacking out, but also success without. Won't my corals be wanting the light for their photosynthesis? I know they're just beginner gsp and pulsing xenia, but they're my first corals and I kind of really like them and would prefer not to nuke them in the process of resolving these dinos. While we're talking about the lights, can anyone comment on the specific settings on each of the six channels that I have them set to? Like violet, blue, green, 3000k white, etc? I think I once tried to delve into this topic to know exactly what I wanted to set those at and it became so overwhelming I don't think anything ever came of it except me thinking "oh well never gonna figure that out."

I forgot that bioballs and ceramic rings do become nitrate factories.

Kind of what I was thinking. With this in mind, I went ahead and left the bio media in the hob alone.

Just a suggestion, cleaning those powerheads would probably help kick up a little more flow.

Funny you should say that.... The left one I literally put in an hour prior to recording and the right one I have cleaned a few times. All the dino simply slaps right on it once I blow it off the coral or rocks.

So I just got home from work and got the neophos and neonitro unpacked. Wow, those instructions aren't exactly for the beginner.... Okay, so it does not specify how to dose exactly. As in dilute in water, put directly in tank, etc. So I put right into the water column. Hope that's okay. Here was my math. Can anyone confirm my execution here?

P04 I figured shoot for .02 since the nitrates are going to start to lower these when they arise, and we want .01 right? So I did 29 (gallons) x .02 x 3.785 = 2.1953ml so I dosed a little over 2ml directly to the tank.

N03 It says not to raise more than .5 a day. So even though my goal is like 10ppm, is this essentially saying I need to dose for .5 a day until I hit my goal of 10ppm?....

If my thought process is correct here I did 29 x .5 x .1261 = 1.82845ml so I dosed a hair under 2ml directly to the tank.

On a side note, I was going threw older shorts on our youtube channel and wanted to share a video I took of this tank a while back that I think really showcases the corals. Like I said earlier, I know they're simply beginner corals but I thought they looked gorgeous and were really thriving at one point and would like to get them not only back to this condition, but spread more!

 

[Formulator]

My goal. lol

I'm worried about my corals if I black out. I've read have had success with blacking out, but also success without. Won't my corals be wanting the light for their photosynthesis? I know they're just beginner gsp and pulsing xenia, but they're my first corals and I kind of really like them and would prefer not to nuke them in the process of resolving these dinos. While we're talking about the lights, can anyone comment on the specific settings on each of the six channels that I have them set to? Like violet, blue, green, 3000k white, etc? I think I once tried to delve into this topic to know exactly what I wanted to set those at and it became so overwhelming I don't think anything ever came of it except me thinking "oh well never gonna figure that out."

Kind of what I was thinking. With this in mind, I went ahead and left the bio media in the hob alone.

Funny you should say that.... The left one I literally put in an hour prior to recording and the right one I have cleaned a few times. All the dino simply slaps right on it once I blow it off the coral or rocks.

So I just got home from work and got the neophos and neonitro unpacked. Wow, those instructions aren't exactly for the beginner.... Okay, so it does not specify how to dose exactly. As in dilute in water, put directly in tank, etc. So I put right into the water column. Hope that's okay. Here was my math. Can anyone confirm my execution here?

P04 I figured shoot for .02 since the nitrates are going to start to lower these when they arise, and we want .01 right? So I did 29 (gallons) x .02 x 3.785 = 2.1953ml so I dosed a little over 2ml directly to the tank.

N03 It says not to raise more than .5 a day. So even though my goal is like 10ppm, is this essentially saying I need to dose for .5 a day until I hit my goal of 10ppm?....

If my thought process is correct here I did 29 x .5 x .1261 = 1.82845ml so I dosed a hair under 2ml directly to the tank.

On a side note, I was going threw older shorts on our youtube channel and wanted to share a video I took of this tank a while back that I think really showcases the corals. Like I said earlier, I know they're simply beginner corals but I thought they looked gorgeous and were really thriving at one point and would like to get them not only back to this condition, but spread more!

Math works out for me. Regarding the neonitro dose, you may find that 0.5 ppm per day is too conservative and may just be consumed by the time you test again. You can safely dose 2-3 ppm in one shot, then slow down as you continue to raise it. Pouring directly into the water column is correct. Try to aim for a powerhead or high flow area.

Regarding the black out, I know it sounds harsh, but the corals will be just fine. Many thousands of reefers have done it successfully for many years and with much more sensitive corals. Just watch the tank temperature and don’t use thick blankets. I once accidentally spiked my temp 4-5 degrees in a couple hours trying to black out my tank for a clownfish hatch… I had the top covered too, but anyways just a heads up they can insulate.

 

[jonnymod]

Math works out for me. Regarding the neonitro dose, you may find that 0.5 ppm per day is too conservative and may just be consumed by the time you test again. You can safely dose 2-3 ppm in one shot, then slow down as you continue to raise it. Pouring directly into the water column is correct. Try to aim for a powerhead or high flow area.

Regarding the black out, I know it sounds harsh, but the corals will be just fine. Many thousands of reefers have done it successfully for many years and with much more sensitive corals. Just watch the tank temperature and don’t use thick blankets. I once accidentally spiked my temp 4-5 degrees in a couple hours trying to black out my tank for a clownfish hatch… I had the top covered too, but anyways just a heads up they can insulate.

Cool. So with that in mind I did the math for 2.5ppm and added an additional 9ml dose. So just so you know where my head was, as I read the bottle it's like "super concentrated!!!" "don't overdue it start slow" and it kind of gets you all nervous to dose too much, lol.

So when we say blackout we're not talking about simply turning the lights out for a few days?.... Because that's what I was thinking when we were saying "black out." In your opinion, would you kill the lights while I do what I'm currently doing, or do you think maybe I hold out on that until we've established our current course of action isn't correcting the dinos and cyano?... Btw, random side thought. I think someone did mention I probably have cyano on the rock, and the rest is dino. What are these both considered in technical terms? Bacteria?... Would saying we're combating a bacterial outbreak be the right terminology?

 

[Formulator]

So when we say blackout we're not talking about simply turning the lights out for a few days?

I think some people go all out and cover with foil or light blankets, but I could be confusing this with blackout needed for clownfish fry hatching and catching… Someone else should confirm.

I think someone did mention I probably have cyano on the rock, and the rest is dino. What are these both considered in technical terms? Bacteria?... Would saying we're combating a bacterial outbreak be the right terminology?

The cyano (cyanobacteria) is a bacteria, though an interesting photosynthetic one that is misleadingly sometimes referred to as blue-green algae when discussing the kind that affects larger bodies of water.

Dinoflagellates are another interesting organism technically classified as eukaryotic (plants, animals, fungi), not a bacteria (prokaryotic), although they do share some characteristics with bacterial cells. Many are photosynthetic, and I think you could call them a type of phytoplankton, but I’m not sure if that is technically correct. Sorry for all the technical jargon, but you sounded somewhat interested in the science of it all

 

[jonnymod]

I think some people go all out and cover with foil or light blankets, but I could be confusing this with blackout needed for clownfish fry hatching and catching… Someone else should confirm.


The cyano (cyanobacteria) is a bacteria, though an interesting photosynthetic one that is misleadingly sometimes referred to as blue-green algae when discussing the kind that affects larger bodies of water.

Dinoflagellates are another interesting organism technically classified as eukaryotic (plants, animals, fungi), not a bacteria (prokaryotic), although they do share some characteristics with bacterial cells. Many are photosynthetic, and I think you could call them a type of phytoplankton, but I’m not sure if that is technically correct. Sorry for all the technical jargon, but you sounded somewhat interested in the science of it all

Well I'm going to see how our current plan works out before I try killing the lights.

I am interested in the technical jargon. Always wanting to learn more.

 

[Dburr1014]

I'm worried about my corals if I black out. I've read have had success with blacking out, but also success without. Won't my corals be wanting the light for their photosynthesis? I know they're just beginner gsp and pulsing xenia, but they're my first corals and I kind of really like them and would prefer not to nuke them in the process of resolving these dinos. While we're talking about the lights, can anyone comment on the specific settings on each of the six channels that I have them set to? Like violet, blue, green, 3000k white, etc? I think I once tried to delve into this topic to know exactly what I wanted to set those at and it became so overwhelming I don't think anything ever came of it except me thinking "oh well never gonna figure that out."

3 day blackout won't kill coral.
It's like a hurricane(or other big storm) on a reef. After a few days it passes.

I'm not sure what lights you have. My settings are red/green 10% blue 80% violet 80% white 40% light blue 80%. Your mileage may very. I like a whiter spectrum and high par for the sps. Play with them. You can dial them down for you lower light stuff but keep the % about that. IE; if you blue is 50% white should be 1/2 or 25%. (if you like that spectrum).

P04 I figured shoot for .02 since the nitrates are going to start to lower these when they arise, and we want .01 right? So I did 29 (gallons) x .02 x 3.785 = 2.1953ml so I dosed a little over 2ml directly to the tank.

N03 It says not to raise more than .5 a day. So even though my goal is like 10ppm, is this essentially saying I need to dose for .5 a day until I hit my goal of 10ppm?....

If my thought process is correct here I did 29 x .5 x .1261 = 1.82845ml so I dosed a hair under 2ml directly to the tank.

PO4 shoot for 0.1, 0.02 is not enough. That could easily go to zero or test as a zero. You need to know you are not on zero for sure. This is how this mess started.

NO3 shoot for 10ppm that a fine plan. Don't worry about how fast to raise with either, just get them up, the quicker the better. The 0.05 is more for seesaw fluctuating. You are going up once and holding.

Question for you.
Have you noticed dinos going away at night and returning during the day? Or do they stay on the sand more or the rock? We need to figure out what you have.

 

[jonnymod]

3 day blackout won't kill coral.
It's like a hurricane(or other big storm) on a reef. After a few days it passes.

I'm not sure what lights you have. My settings are red/green 10% blue 80% violet 80% white 40% light blue 80%. Your mileage may very. I like a whiter spectrum and high par for the sps. Play with them. You can dial them down for you lower light stuff but keep the % about that. IE; if you blue is 50% white should be 1/2 or 25%. (if you like that spectrum).



PO4 shoot for 0.1, 0.02 is not enough. That could easily go to zero or test as a zero. You need to know you are not on zero for sure. This is how this mess started.

NO3 shoot for 10ppm that a fine plan. Don't worry about how fast to raise with either, just get them up, the quicker the better. The 0.05 is more for seesaw fluctuating. You are going up once and holding.

Question for you.
Have you noticed dinos going away at night and returning during the day? Or do they stay on the sand more or the rock? We need to figure out what you have.

The lights I'm using are on my original post. I'd go back in the thread and pull the info but I'm about to walk into work and am on my phone so I'm kind of limited to just short responses on here. I know there's 6 channels with different spectrums. I did list them though previously.

So I need to aim higher like .04 p04? When I get home from work I'll test and adjust the p04 dosing to reflect that.

So off the top of my head without being at home and looking at it... I notice it the most on the pulsing xenia and rocks, and floating around the water column and on the HOB, and back of tank. I don't think I really notice that much on the sand.

 

[Dburr1014]

The lights I'm using are on my original post. I'd go back in the thread and pull the info but I'm about to walk into work and am on my phone so I'm kind of limited to just short responses on here. I know there's 6 channels with different spectrums. I did list them though previously.

So I need to aim higher like .04 p04? When I get home from work I'll test and adjust the p04 dosing to reflect that.

So off the top of my head without being at home and looking at it... I notice it the most on the pulsing xenia and rocks, and floating around the water column and on the HOB, and back of tank. I don't think I really notice that much on the sand.

Ah, no worries.
The whites also have blueish led also, it's how there made.
If you like your settings, keep them there.

PO4 to 0.1 is what I recommend.
Need to get it up. I'm convinced zero PO4 is what leads to dinos. It has nothing to do with NO3.
But, we want both when battling dinos for bacteria competition to fill in the rock.

 

[jonnymod]

Ah, no worries.
The whites also have blueish led also, it's how there made.
If you like your settings, keep them there.

PO4 to 0.1 is what I recommend.
Need to get it up. I'm convinced zero PO4 is what leads to dinos. It has nothing to do with NO3.
But, we want both when battling dinos for bacteria competition to fill in the rock.

See I get you saying if I like the lights leave em, but I rather not have them how I "like them," I rather them setup to optimize the corals I'm trying to keep. Is it not as simple as telling someone the 6 spectrums or colors on the channels and saying "this should be here, and this here" for specific corals? There has to be some sort of formula right?... Like earlier you mention you did something specific with your lights for your sps. Okay, what was it, and how do you know that specific color/spectrum whatever does that? I was always under the impression the lighting was one of the most important parts of sw and corals, but no one seems too interested in what my lights are at.

i have just learnt couple of new things from your write up

Most I've learned about this since I started this tank nearly 2 years ago. You'd think I'd be discouraged about the dinos/cyano and my poor corals and tank looking like blah but it's actually exciting that I feel like I'm finally starting to "get it" as far as some of this foreign to me sw stuff.

Okay, update:

Just got home from work a bit ago and tested p04 and n03. They are both reading 0 but I can see the color very slightly leaning torwards the next reaing on the chart oppose to the first time I tested. Before anyone even goes there, I get it, there are better more accurate fancy electric testers, stuff with reagents, etc. I just don't have the means for that right now so the API chem kit will have to suffice with giving me a rough estimation of where we stand.

I dosed 2.19ml neophos again which equates to .02. Someone mentioned I should shoot higher until I start to get results, so I actually rethought this and went back and gave it another 2.19ml.

I dosed 18ml neonitro, equivalent to 5.0ppm.

I turned all 3 lights power ot off mode tonight. Going to give it 3 days w/o lights and tomorrow after work I will repeat this process. Test p04 and n03 and dose accordingly.

Sorry for the later responses to this thread recently. I started this thread on my days off, and now that my work week has started I will be limited to responding short responses prior to work, and then longer responses once I'm home. I really appreciate everyones time with this thread. Seriously.

On a random side note the ccs was right up in the top corner of the tank, readly reachable, and I saw a post online yesterday that they're like coral lawn mowers, so I snagged him and moved him to my 75g. So the ccs is no longer in here. All fish seem to be doing just fine though and eating very well.