Cyanobacteria

[jonnymod]

So we've had our few sw tank setup for long over a year. Exactly how long, I'm not sure. Recently, we've had an abundance of red gunk covering our corals, rocks, the glass on the tank, hob filter, and sometimes even on the fish. From a little google research I believe it may be cyanobacteria. I will post a video with one of my lenses, so that everyone can see it before confirming it's cyanobacteria because I'm not positive.

Once I noticed this stuff forming, our pulsing xenia also stopped being as active and pulsing like it once did. I'm going to provide all the information I think is pertinent and let me know if there is anything I'm missing.

30g tank.

Equipment I'm running-
hygger mini wave maker 1600gph
seachem tidal 55
3x G5 aquastar 95w full spectrum lights (off amazon, smatfarm is brand I guess?...)

Light master is programmed sunrise 1000-1100, sunset 1900-2100.

sunlight 14000k cool white 0%, 450nm deep sea blue+457nm dark blue 80%, 430nm indigo blue 80%, 420nm purple 5%, 3000k warm white 5%, 500nm green 5%

moonlight 0% across the board

stock is an assorted cuc, 1 cc seastar, 1 blue damsel, 1 3 spot domino damsel, 1 clownfish, 1 royal gramma

substrate is crushed coral (honestly don't remember brand but it was some established in bag board at lfs name brand stuff

about 30lb of lr, lots of pulsing xenia, some gsp

water test from today are the following:

high range ph 8.0
ammonia 0
nitrites 0
nitrates 0
calcium 340ppm
kh carbonate hardness 7dkh
phosphates 0
salinity 29ppt

So, I see the calcium is low from what I researched. I also see my salinity is a little low. I went a very long time without doing wc on this tank. Reason being, the nitrates always tested practically nothing. I'm not sure if that's abnormal for a sw tank. I'm well aware that wouldn't be normal for a fw because some sort of nitrates would have to be present to show a full completed cycle. Now in the last 3-4 days I have done 2 5g wc. I thought maybe it was time I started to get on the wc and that would help this cyano go away. The first wc I did I accidentally put enough salt in the batch for 4g and not 5g, so I'm assuming that's the low salinity. I did the proper measurement for the 2nd wc, and I have a third batch of water mixing now, and added a bit extra salt to balance the salinity.

I've also been using a turkey baster to try to remove the cyano from the rock and coral, but I feel like there is so much it's just suspending it into the water until it inevidably lands back where it started because it's more than the tidal could keep up with imo. Should I be doing something to increase the calcium?

The water perimeters don't seem bad at all to me from what I'm reading they should be. Maybe the pH needs to raise a touch, and the calcium needs to come up, the salinity a hair, and the kh maybe needs to come up a little? I'm starting to think it may have something to do with the light settings? Frankly, I have no clue what I'm doing with the light configuration and I tried figuring it out once a while back and it was practically impossible to find direct instructions on what it needed to be so I've kind of tweaked it based on what a lfs guy said a few years back, and it seemed to be okay so I've left it be for a while.

Any input is greatly appreciated. My Tank

 

[EliMelly]

How old is the tank? Be careful of bottoming out. Check out coral snow

 

[Formulator]

Your nitrate and phosphate should never be zero. You are starving the entire tank biome of essential nutrients. Opportunistic pests take advantage of this low nutrient state to take over available real estate that would normally be covered in beneficial biofilm or coralline algae.

Step 1 is to raise those. Remove any phosphate absorbing media and feed more. If you run bioballs or other biofilter material in your HOB, remove it (do this slowly over a couple weeks). If they are stubborn, you may need to dose. Neonitro and neophos from brightwell are good options. Target 0.05-0.1 phosphate and 10-20 ppm nitrate.

Cyano also thrives in low flow. If it is everywhere, I suspect you need more flow in the tank.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

Its a great description but pictures tell a thousand words, can we see a tank pic and a close up of the algae for Id. I'm wondering if you have dino's instead of cyano. Algae being able to grow on a fish a serious thing.

Your parameters are all off, water changes don't only remove nutrients but also replenish elements and help bring parameters back into line.

 

[Dburr1014]

So we've had our few sw tank setup for long over a year. Exactly how long, I'm not sure. Recently, we've had an abundance of red gunk covering our corals, rocks, the glass on the tank, hob filter, and sometimes even on the fish. From a little google research I believe it may be cyanobacteria. I will post a video with one of my lenses, so that everyone can see it before confirming it's cyanobacteria because I'm not positive.

Once I noticed this stuff forming, our pulsing xenia also stopped being as active and pulsing like it once did. I'm going to provide all the information I think is pertinent and let me know if there is anything I'm missing.

30g tank.

Equipment I'm running-
hygger mini wave maker 1600gph
seachem tidal 55
3x G5 aquastar 95w full spectrum lights (off amazon, smatfarm is brand I guess?...)

Light master is programmed sunrise 1000-1100, sunset 1900-2100.

sunlight 14000k cool white 0%, 450nm deep sea blue+457nm dark blue 80%, 430nm indigo blue 80%, 420nm purple 5%, 3000k warm white 5%, 500nm green 5%

moonlight 0% across the board

stock is an assorted cuc, 1 cc seastar, 1 blue damsel, 1 3 spot domino damsel, 1 clownfish, 1 royal gramma

substrate is crushed coral (honestly don't remember brand but it was some established in bag board at lfs name brand stuff

about 30lb of lr, lots of pulsing xenia, some gsp

water test from today are the following:

high range ph 8.0
ammonia 0
nitrites 0
nitrates 0
calcium 340ppm
kh carbonate hardness 7dkh
phosphates 0
salinity 29ppt

So, I see the calcium is low from what I researched. I also see my salinity is a little low. I went a very long time without doing wc on this tank. Reason being, the nitrates always tested practically nothing. I'm not sure if that's abnormal for a sw tank. I'm well aware that wouldn't be normal for a fw because some sort of nitrates would have to be present to show a full completed cycle. Nowdinos.e last 3-4 days I have done 2 5g wc. I thought maybe it was time I started to get on the wc and that would help this cyano go away. The first wc I did I accidentally put enough salt in the batch for 4g and not 5g, so I'm assuming that's the low salinity. I did the proper measurement for the 2nd wc, and I have a third batch of water mixing now, and added a bit extra salt to balance the salinity.

I've also been using a turkey baster to try to remove the cyano from the rock and coral, but I feel like there is so much it's just suspending it into the water until it inevidably lands back where it started because it's more than the tidal could keep up with imo. Should I be doing something to increase the calcium?

The water perimeters don't seem bad at all to me from what I'm reading they should be. Maybe the pH needs to raise a touch, and the calcium needs to come up, the salinity a hair, and the kh maybe needs to come up a little? I'm starting to think it may have something to do with the light settings? Frankly, I have no clue what I'm doing with the light configuration and I tried figuring it out once a while back and it was practically impossible to find direct instructions on what it needed to be so I've kind of tweaked it based on what a lfs guy said a few years back, and it seemed to be okay so I've left it be for a while.

Any input is greatly appreciated. My Tank

By the look of the video, I'll say cyano, GHA, and dinos.
Dino will be the worse battle and your first to attack. It may squash all you have going on.
Do you happen to have a microscope?

For those that didn't see the video he posted:
You need more flow also.

 

[jonnymod]

Its a great description but pictures tell a thousand words, can we see a tank pic and a close up of the algae for Id. I'm wondering if you have dino's instead of cyano. Algae being able to grow on a fish a serious thing.

Your parameters are all off, water changes don't only remove nutrients but also replenish elements and help bring parameters back into line.

Thanks for the quick response. I actually just shot a video with one of my good lenses so you could get a really good view. I edit, added it after I submitted post. Just needed time to upload the video.

So what water perimeters are off aside from what I mentioned?

 

[Formulator]

I just watched the video. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that appears to be dino, not cyano (maybe some cyano mixed in). Not surprising at all, considering your nutrients are bottomed out.

Check out this thread. You have a battle ahead and I wish you the best of luck!

Article: Dinoflagellate Treatment Guide

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

Thanks for the quick response. I actually just shot a video with one of my good lenses so you could get a really good view. I edit, added it after I submitted post. Just needed time to upload the video.

So what water perimeters are off aside from what I mentioned?

Sorry I just saw the video.
Salinity should be 34-35 ppm, alk should be 8-9, calcium 400-450. Alk is by far the most important if you really want to get into corals and it needs to be kept very stable.

 

[jonnymod]

How old is the tank? Be careful of bottoming out. Check out coral snow

So I just took a look back at my first post on here when I was cleaning up the tank. Judging by that post, I believe we set this up a little after May 2022. So a little over 2 years old. I will look into this coral snow. Thank you.

Your nitrate and phosphate should never be zero. You are starving the entire tank biome of essential nutrients. Opportunistic pests take advantage of this low nutrient state to take over available real estate that would normally be covered in beneficial biofilm or coralline algae.

Step 1 is to raise those. Remove any phosphate absorbing media and feed more. If you run bioballs or other biofilter material in your HOB, remove it (do this slowly over a couple weeks). If they are stubborn, you may need to dose. Neonitro and neophos from brightwell are good options. Target 0.05-0.1 phosphate and 10-20 ppm nitrate.

Cyano also thrives in low flow. If it is everywhere, I suspect you need more flow in the tank.

As a long term fw guy I guess I need to change my thought process completely with my sw tanks. Low nitrates is permanently engraved in my head as ideal. Clearly it isn't here. Surely nitrates are still not good for marine fish, but can you tell me why they are wanted in a marine tank? Do the corals feed on nitrates? Surely they still need to be kept low though right? I'm pretty sure I read in the API test kit booklet phosphates should be at zero. I'm not doubting your information by any means, just informing you of what I was going off of. Do the corals also feed on phosphates? The media I have in the tidal is the standard sized to fit sponge on the bottom for mechanical and a bag of ceramic rings. Should I remove one, or both? Please advice.

As far as flow, the powerhead can certainly be turned up. I was trying to keep it as a pace that I could physically see xenia and such being blown a bit, but the fish weren't being blown away. I'm always worried the flow is too strong for the fish. Can you suggest a configuration for the hygger eco slim wave maker? I'm looking over the manual right now and simply have no idea what configuration it needs to be at.

Also do you suggest I get those chems and start dosing now, or wait a bit?

I just watched the video. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that appears to be dino, not cyano (maybe some cyano mixed in). Not surprising at all, considering your nutrients are bottomed out.

Check out this thread. You have a battle ahead and I wish you the best of luck!

Article: Dinoflagellate Treatment Guide

Thanks for the identification. I will take the time to read over that article. Just briefly looking at it though it looks like it's going to put me into a state of utter confusion.

By the look of the video, I'll say cyano, GHA, and dinos.
Dino will be the worse battle and your first to attack. It may squash all you have going on.
Do you happen to have a microscope?

For those that didn't see the video he posted:
You need more flow also.

Thanks for the identification. No, I do not have a microscope. What would I need one for? My current take away from this feedback is dino #1 issue. I'm going to await further advice from @Formulator about what media to remove from hob, what do with the powerhead settings, and if I should start dosing with suggested chems.

As far as the flow, I have other powerheads, as well as this one in here not being close to turned up all the way. I'm just usure what mode, power, frequency, etc to set it up to. Can you advice on what I should configure this powerhead to?

Sorry I just saw the video.
Salinity should be 34-35 ppm, alk should be 8-9, calcium 400-450. Alk is by far the most important if you really want to get into corals and it needs to be kept very stable.

Thanks for those specific numbers. I'll notate them in my book so I have goal numbers.

 

[blecki]

Low nitrates don't cause dino. What they do is allow dino to outcompete other things. You can have 0 nitrate and 0 dino (I used to) if you have enough microfauna. IMO pods are the long term cure for dino. But - you have to knock it down first. Unfortunately just raising nutrient levels is likely to make the dino worse before it gets better, since it's already established, but still needs to be done. I'd siphon as much out as possible and add some pods.

 

[djf91]

Low nitrates don't cause dino. What they do is allow dino to outcompete other things. You can have 0 nitrate and 0 dino (I used to) if you have enough microfauna. IMO pods are the long term cure for dino. But - you have to knock it down first. Unfortunately just raising nutrient levels is likely to make the dino worse before it gets better, since it's already established, but still needs to be done. I'd siphon as much out as possible and add some pods.

I agree with this. In an established, mature system, ultra low nutrients can work but it needs to be done slowly. If it happens too quickly, not giving the ecosystem time to adapt, then Dino’s will take advantage of this. Most SPS systems back in the day kept undetectable NO3 and PO4 or close to it and had no issues.

 

[jonnymod]

Low nitrates don't cause dino. What they do is allow dino to outcompete other things. You can have 0 nitrate and 0 dino (I used to) if you have enough microfauna. IMO pods are the long term cure for dino. But - you have to knock it down first. Unfortunately just raising nutrient levels is likely to make the dino worse before it gets better, since it's already established, but still needs to be done. I'd siphon as much out as possible and add some pods.

Excuse my lack of knowledge, but I'm still new to sw and the terminologies. What are the "pods" you are suggesting to add?

Also to everyone else, I've just spent some time reading this powerhead manual. Here's what I've established. There is a tidal time setting.

Factory is 530-730am dawn, 730 to 930 sunrise, 930-1400 day, 1400-1600 sunset, and 1630-530 night. I left those alone as is.

The next three things I can control are the following. power setting, wave mode, and wave frequency. power is 40, 60, 80, or 100%. I've set it to 100%. wave mode is classic, nutrituion transfer, constant stream, and random. I'm not sure if these are standard terms for sw and you fellas know what these mean or not. I can post a picture of the picture examples of each I see in the manual? classic looks like a steady up and down, nut looks like a smoother up anbd down, cons seems like no up and down, and random is the 3 randomized. I have it currently at classic. Wave frequency seems to be how fast this bar does the motion? I have it set to fastest. Should I have that more torwards the middle so its got a better steady flow instead of that super fast up and down?....

 

[Sophie"s mom]

Agree with all that has been said here. Pods are copepods. They really are an amazing part of a tank.

 

[Sophie"s mom]

Excuse my lack of knowledge, but I'm still new to sw and the terminologies. What are the "pods" you are suggesting to add?

Also to everyone else, I've just spent some time reading this powerhead manual. Here's what I've established. There is a tidal time setting.

Factory is 530-730am dawn, 730 to 930 sunrise, 930-1400 day, 1400-1600 sunset, and 1630-530 night. I left those alone as is.

The next three things I can control are the following. power setting, wave mode, and wave frequency. power is 40, 60, 80, or 100%. I've set it to 100%. wave mode is classic, nutrituion transfer, constant stream, and random. I'm not sure if these are standard terms for sw and you fellas know what these mean or not. I can post a picture of the picture examples of each I see in the manual? classic looks like a steady up and down, nut looks like a smoother up anbd down, cons seems like no up and down, and random is the 3 randomized. I have it currently at classic. Wave frequency seems to be how fast this bar does the motion? I have it set to fastest. Should I have that more torwards the middle so its got a better steady flow instead of that super fast up and down?....

Also, you can get copepods at either Reef By Steele or Algae Barn. I get them monthly.

 

[jonnymod]

Agree with all that has been said here. Pods are copepods. They really are an amazing part of a tank.

Copepods. Understood. There is a really nice reputable lfs not too far from u s called Nahackys and I know they have that stuff there. They kind of specialize in sw. My LFS

I'm currently in the process of reading over the dino article. It's actually making some sense to me so I'm not totally overwhelmed and that's a good feeling, lol. So far I'm understanding what's alreay been mentioned here. I have not identified the exact type of dino I have, but I see some common treatment for all dino across the board. I should start feeding more frequently that may help out with some nitrate production. I also need to get those two chems and initially start with dosing to increase my phosphates, then follow up with the nitrate one, but phosphates first since the second one will deplete phosphates as far as I'm unstanding. That's about where I'm currently at...

 

[Sophie"s mom]

Copepods. Understood. There is a really nice reputable lfs not too far from u s called Nahackys and I know they have that stuff there. They kind of specialize in sw. My LFS

I'm currently in the process of reading over the dino article. It's actually making some sense to me so I'm not totally overwhelmed and that's a good feeling, lol. So far I'm understanding what's alreay been mentioned here. I have not identified the exact type of dino I have, but I see some common treatment for all dino across the board. I should start feeding more frequently that may help out with some nitrate production. I also need to get those two chems and initially start with dosing to increase my phosphates, then follow up with the nitrate one, but phosphates first since the second one will deplete phosphates as far as I'm unstanding. That's about where I'm currently at...

Sounds like you are getting it. I would go ahead and get pods, but you will need to replenish them , and feed them phytoplankton a couple times a week. but for now, just clean out as much as possible on a daily basis. When you do add the pods, I do it after lights go out for the night, and use a piece of PVC that way you can direct them into the rockwork where they stand a better chance of survival. I would also probably get an additional power head. My tank is a 90 and I have 4 in there. You can beat this, it is just a lot of work. Stay diligent about daily removal of as much as possible.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

Excuse my lack of knowledge, but I'm still new to sw and the terminologies. What are the "pods" you are suggesting to add?

Also to everyone else, I've just spent some time reading this powerhead manual. Here's what I've established. There is a tidal time setting.

Factory is 530-730am dawn, 730 to 930 sunrise, 930-1400 day, 1400-1600 sunset, and 1630-530 night. I left those alone as is.

The next three things I can control are the following. power setting, wave mode, and wave frequency. power is 40, 60, 80, or 100%. I've set it to 100%. wave mode is classic, nutrituion transfer, constant stream, and random. I'm not sure if these are standard terms for sw and you fellas know what these mean or not. I can post a picture of the picture examples of each I see in the manual? classic looks like a steady up and down, nut looks like a smoother up anbd down, cons seems like no up and down, and random is the 3 randomized. I have it currently at classic. Wave frequency seems to be how fast this bar does the motion? I have it set to fastest. Should I have that more torwards the middle so its got a better steady flow instead of that super fast up and down?....

The goal is to eliminate dead flow spots, so which ever setting does the job will be good. However, its very hard to eliminate dead flow spots with only one powerhead, because you get a one way linear flow. If you add another on the opposite side of the tank and aim them towards each other, they will bounce off each other and you get random flow patterns and eliminate most dead flow spots. Random flow patterns is ideal. One of the powerheads should be pointed upwards at the water surface to create agitation and help oxygenate the water.

 

[get-salty]

Sorry I just saw the video.
Salinity should be 34-35 ppm, alk should be 8-9, calcium 400-450. Alk is by far the most important if you really want to get into corals and it needs to be kept very stable.

i totally agree with the comment above.


Your parameters are abnormal .. except for the ph and ammonia.
like someone said. bring them up.. but SLOWLY.

 

[jonnymod]

Sounds like you are getting it. I would go ahead and get pods, but you will need to replenish them , and feed them phytoplankton a couple times a week. but for now, just clean out as much as possible on a daily basis. When you do add the pods, I do it after lights go out for the night, and use a piece of PVC that way you can direct them into the rockwork where they stand a better chance of survival. I would also probably get an additional power head. My tank is a 90 and I have 4 in there. You can beat this, it is just a lot of work. Stay diligent about daily removal of as much as possible.

I think so. The pods are going to have to wait a week since today was my last day off for the week, but I got a start on the process. I dug threw the shed and added a second powerhead to the tank. I kept the right one centered front to back and lowered it, and installed one on the opposite side higher and angled a bit. You can physically see the surface agitation and water movement is increased, and I have them pointing in to each other like previously suggested here. I also changed the original powerhead's wave setting to random. The neophos and neonitro should be here tomorrow via Amazon. Can someone give me a suggestion for high high to raise the phosphates before I stop dosing with the neophos and start dosing with neonitro?

The goal is to eliminate dead flow spots, so which ever setting does the job will be good. However, its very hard to eliminate dead flow spots with only one powerhead, because you get a one way linear flow. If you add another on the opposite side of the tank and aim them towards each other, they will bounce off each other and you get random flow patterns and eliminate most dead flow spots. Random flow patterns is ideal. One of the powerheads should be pointed upwards at the water surface to create agitation and help oxygenate the water.

Understood. I installed a second one on the opposite side and oriented them inward so they clash and hit multiple columns of the water and rockwork.

i totally agree with the comment above.


Your parameters are abnormal .. except for the ph and ammonia.
like someone said. bring them up.. but SLOWLY.

Yep. Have some neonitro and neophos coming in tomorrow.

Question to anyone in here. No one really touched base on the calcium being lower than what I read it should be. Should I consider getting some brightwell calcium buffer now, or not worry about that perimeter until I get the dino under control and then consider the calcium buffer later? Or wait till this is resolved and see where it resides and then address? Suggestions?

 

[Dburr1014]

I will look into this coral snow.

IMO, I would not use this in such a low PO4 (phosphate) environment. It will only bind more. More you really don't have.

Surely nitrates are still not good for marine fish, but can you tell me why they are wanted in a marine tank? Do the corals feed on nitrates? Surely they still need to be kept low though right? I'm pretty sure I read in the API test kit booklet phosphates should be at zero. I'm not doubting your information by any means, just informing you of what I was going off of. Do the corals also feed on phosphates?

Nitrates are okay. High value, probably not good but we tend to keep them sub 30ppm. It's not unheard of higher or zero, or close to zero.

PO4 should not be zero. Bacteria need PO4 and coral eat bacteria.
We are learning this stuff more and more.
Coral also take up ammonium really good. To much ammonium and bacteria use it to create nitrate. Nitrate is what's left over. We can easily test nitrate but not so much ammonium.

As far as flow, the powerhead can certainly be turned up. I was trying to keep it as a pace that I could physically see xenia and such being blown a bit, but the fish weren't being blown away. I'm always worried the flow is too strong for the fish. Can you suggest a configuration for the hygger eco slim wave maker? I'm looking over the manual right now and simply have no idea what configuration it needs to be at.

Thanks for the identification. No, I do not have a microscope. What would I need one for? My current take away from this feedback is dino #1 issue.

Powerheads can create random flow. Corals need flow for catching food and waste management. Your tank I consider very low flow.

A microscope to help identify what type of dinos.
Different types have different ways to beat them. Each look different or swim different.
Some go into the water column at night and reappear daily. A UV light helps with those.
Some stay on the sandbed and may need to dose waterglass to beat those.
Even a cheap microscope can be helpful or maybe borrow one.