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What is everyone's favorite non anecdotal evidence for CI immunity in reef fishes?
That’s the time probiotics seem useful is after using a broad spectrum antibiotic imho. Truth be told they will come back on their own. But I think the Larry’s foods are a good start. Secondly antibiotics don’t kill all the intestinal bacteria. But can kill enough to allow pathogens to take hold. That was a great storySo my major experience with fish disease was not CI but Trichodina. To all outward observations the fish seemed infected with CI and the loss rate was in excess of 50%.
The set up was for a 1650 gallon display aquarium for a client with all Hawaiian endemics including Moorish Idols, Butterflies, Tangs, Trigger fish, Bird Wrasse, Flame Hawkfish, Stripped Squirrel fish and Angelfish. The tank was designed to use Biological, Mechanical, U.V. sterilization, Klase Protein Skimmer and in line chiller/heater. Tank had 4000lbs of seeded live rock set up as a reef structure. Tank was set up and water mixed and circulated at proper salinity for 30 days before the fish arrived. Now the problem.
Mistake #1. The client at the last minute deleted the U.V. and chiller to save cost. Mistake #2. The Architect only provided heated air to the equipment room not the active exhaust fan in the original design to vent waste heat from the MH light systems and heat and moisture from the equipment room pumps and related equipment. Due to lights out during the run in period we had no indication of a heat problem. Tank was stable at 76 degrees and water quality was stable and cycled by the seeded rock. Grand opening was scheduled and the fish transported to the display tank from our holding system. No losses and no apparent problems.
The result after the grand opening was a tank water temperature in the 90's. Higher temperature lower oxygen. Fish started to exhibit symptoms like CI, flashing, white spots and including some with subdural hemorrhaging, loss of appetite, and similar CI symptoms in less than 24 hours the loss rates were climbing. It was then discovered that all we had was heat to the mechanical room and no vent. I used a Veterinarian at Washington State University that had worked in Aquaculture as a resource and paid for decropsy and diagnosis as to the causative agent before treatment. Initial decropsy was inconclusive so we sacrificed a couple very sick fish to find the causative agent. Trichodina is an ectocomensual that becomes pathogenic during issues of poor water quality or other environmental factors (high water temperature, lower oxygen).
Solution: Armed with the diagnosis we convinced the client to add back the Chiller and U.V. as originally designed. No medications were used but the loss rates stopped immediately and we successfully restocked the tank.
What I learned was the onset of similar symptoms to CI does not mean you have CI but you could have a similar symptom via Trichodina or other organisms. Trichodina as I mentioned lives on all fish both saltwater and freshwater and is manifest during higher levels of stress leading to pathogenic levels. With this knowledge I have used filtration methods including U.V. sterilization to dramatically improve and in many cases lower loss rates to less than 3% for multiple stores in the Pacific Northwest. This was a gain in both short and long term holding of fish for sale at these facilities. Prior to the use of these systems the stores averaged 30% or more in losses from acclimation to sale.
This is one reason I am against prophylactic use of chemicals to treat fish unless and until the actual causative agent is known via decropsy or microscopic diagnosis. If I were a physician I would not prescribe until a correct diagnosis was arrived at. It is akin to starting someone on Chemotherapy without a biopsy or other diagnostic certainties as to the type and cause of illness. Many of these prophylactic chemicals do in fact kill the flora and fauna needed to keep the fish healthy in the natural environment. So where are we to go to find the right kind of probiotics to restart their immune system after we destroyed it chemically?
So my major experience with fish disease was not CI but Trichodina. To all outward observations the fish seemed infected with CI and the loss rate was in excess of 50%.
The set up was for a 1650 gallon display aquarium for a client with all Hawaiian endemics including Moorish Idols, Butterflies, Tangs, Trigger fish, Bird Wrasse, Flame Hawkfish, Stripped Squirrel fish and Angelfish. The tank was designed to use Biological, Mechanical, U.V. sterilization, Klase Protein Skimmer and in line chiller/heater. Tank had 4000lbs of seeded live rock set up as a reef structure. Tank was set up and water mixed and circulated at proper salinity for 30 days before the fish arrived. Now the problem.
Mistake #1. The client at the last minute deleted the U.V. and chiller to save cost. Mistake #2. The Architect only provided heated air to the equipment room not the active exhaust fan in the original design to vent waste heat from the MH light systems and heat and moisture from the equipment room pumps and related equipment. Due to lights out during the run in period we had no indication of a heat problem. Tank was stable at 76 degrees and water quality was stable and cycled by the seeded rock. Grand opening was scheduled and the fish transported to the display tank from our holding system. No losses and no apparent problems.
The result after the grand opening was a tank water temperature in the 90's. Higher temperature lower oxygen. Fish started to exhibit symptoms like CI, flashing, white spots and including some with subdural hemorrhaging, loss of appetite, and similar CI symptoms in less than 24 hours the loss rates were climbing. It was then discovered that all we had was heat to the mechanical room and no vent. I used a Veterinarian at Washington State University that had worked in Aquaculture as a resource and paid for decropsy and diagnosis as to the causative agent before treatment. Initial decropsy was inconclusive so we sacrificed a couple very sick fish to find the causative agent. Trichodina is an ectocomensual that becomes pathogenic during issues of poor water quality or other environmental factors (high water temperature, lower oxygen).
Solution: Armed with the diagnosis we convinced the client to add back the Chiller and U.V. as originally designed. No medications were used but the loss rates stopped immediately and we successfully restocked the tank.
What I learned was the onset of similar symptoms to CI does not mean you have CI but you could have a similar symptom via Trichodina or other organisms. Trichodina as I mentioned lives on all fish both saltwater and freshwater and is manifest during higher levels of stress leading to pathogenic levels. With this knowledge I have used filtration methods including U.V. sterilization to dramatically improve and in many cases lower loss rates to less than 3% for multiple stores in the Pacific Northwest. This was a gain in both short and long term holding of fish for sale at these facilities. Prior to the use of these systems the stores averaged 30% or more in losses from acclimation to sale.
This is one reason I am against prophylactic use of chemicals to treat fish unless and until the actual causative agent is known via decropsy or microscopic diagnosis. If I were a physician I would not prescribe until a correct diagnosis was arrived at. It is akin to starting someone on Chemotherapy without a biopsy or other diagnostic certainties as to the type and cause of illness. Many of these prophylactic chemicals do in fact kill the flora and fauna needed to keep the fish healthy in the natural environment. So where are we to go to find the right kind of probiotics to restart their immune system after we destroyed it chemically?
You guys miss the part where Tricodina is an ectocomensal that is often benificial to the host.
My basis for this approach goes to the larger ecological picture. @Lowell Lemon cited research in the other thread showing that in the ocean, fish exposure to these parasites is essentially constant. Yet, they don’t succumb to them.