Continuous phytoplankton|rotifers reactor 24h food supply

[Abhishek]

You guys need one of these

 

[sixty_reefer]

You guys need one of these

Wow, is that system fully automated looks super duper expensive too

 

[sixty_reefer]

I see no obstacles to analyzing microbes in a phytoplankton culture. It would be interesting to know what microbes get added to the tank along with the phytoplankton.

I would certainly be interested in the results, i also believe that a culture goes true a cycling stage similar to aquaria. My culture at 1 year old was virtually self sustaining and harder to crash compared to its initial stage, Barely needing any fertiliser to thrive.

 

[Abhishek]

Wow, is that system fully automated looks super duper expensive too

Well it is especially when you have to import from
Italy .
It’s not expensive enough compared to the automation involved in it . But again in US , we will spend 1K for a 3/4 inch frag of jaw dropper or a jaw breaker whereas in Europe , people would pay the same for equipments like these . But that’s a discussion for another time and place ..

 

[Phildago]

Well it is especially when you have to import from
Italy .
It’s not expensive enough compared to the automation involved in it . But again in US , we will spend 1K for a 3/4 inch frag of jaw dropper or a jaw breaker whereas in Europe , people would pay the same for equipments like these . But that’s a discussion for another time and place ..

In america we have the time, money and ingenuity to buy nice things that we cant build ourselves, and build the things we can. So, although I've never spend over $150 on live stock, I've also never spent much more than that on any equipment

 

[sixty_reefer]

Well it is especially when you have to import from
Italy .
It’s not expensive enough compared to the automation involved in it . But again in US , we will spend 1K for a 3/4 inch frag of jaw dropper or a jaw breaker whereas in Europe , people would pay the same for equipments like these . But that’s a discussion for another time and place ..

I think easyreefs released a similar one to this at macna this year, I believe it’s called the easyroty reactor.

 

[Dan buretta]

@Dan buretta if you add an extra dosing head with the fertiliser you could have the system fully automated. Also have you calculate the salinity in your reservoir to keep your culture steady at 1019?

I have not. I’m using 1.015 right now. I’ll check it in a few days and make adjustments as needed.

 

[Mortie31]

Have any of you tested for copper,I was dosing about 2.5L per week and over 6 months and was using f2 as a fertiliser to grow phytoplankton I slowly saw my copper rise to peak at 13ug/lsince i have stopped dosing phyto it has fallen over the last 2 months down to 3ug/l.. It never seemed to do any harm at those levels but I wasn’t comfortable with them.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Have any of you tested for copper,I was dosing about 2.5L per week and over 6 months and was using f2 as a fertiliser to grow phytoplankton I slowly saw my copper rise to peak at 13ug/lsince i have stopped dosing phyto it has fallen over the last 2 months down to 3ug/l.. It never seemed to do any harm at those levels but I wasn’t comfortable with them.

2.5 litres per week? What size tank you got?

 

[Mortie31]

2.5 litres per week? What size tank you got?

It’s 900L net

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Have any of you tested for copper,I was dosing about 2.5L per week and over 6 months and was using f2 as a fertiliser to grow phytoplankton I slowly saw my copper rise to peak at 13ug/lsince i have stopped dosing phyto it has fallen over the last 2 months down to 3ug/l.. It never seemed to do any harm at those levels but I wasn’t comfortable with them.

Hmm, interesting result on the copper, and one of the things I was wondering about with daily additions of phyto (accumulation of unused trace elements). Can you share a bit about the method of your culturing? How long were you waiting between f2 addition and using the phyto?

 

[Mortie31]

I was doing nothing different to most, I had 2 5l containers lit by LEDs, every week or so I’d decant half of one container to use, top up with salt water add 1ml of F2. So each culture was running for 2 weeks before decanting... this ran continuously.. every few months I’d empty one of the containers and clean it thoroughly, then add the phyto back in and carry on...

 

[AquaBiomics]

Have any of you tested for copper,I was dosing about 2.5L per week and over 6 months and was using f2 as a fertiliser to grow phytoplankton I slowly saw my copper rise to peak at 13ug/lsince i have stopped dosing phyto it has fallen over the last 2 months down to 3ug/l.. It never seemed to do any harm at those levels but I wasn’t comfortable with them.

This is a great question, the biggest thing thats kept me from experimenting with dosing phyto cultures to my tanks is the list of ingredients in F/2 (including copper). Of course the dose makes the poison, the question is do these ingredients accumulate over time to dangerous levels?

Interesting to hear you found a measurable increase. I know nothing about the sensitivity of copper tests at those levels, can I ask what test you were using?

 

[Mortie31]

This is a great question, the biggest thing thats kept me from experimenting with dosing phyto cultures to my tanks is the list of ingredients in F/2 (including copper). Of course the dose makes the poison, the question is do these ingredients accumulate over time to dangerous levels?

Interesting to hear you found a measurable increase. I know nothing about the sensitivity of copper tests at those levels, can I ask what test you were using?

I use Triton ICP testing, i saw an increase that has since dropped back but I cannot prove was 100% from the phytoplankton and F2 but I haven’t found or removed another source. I wonder if some brands of F2 have different levels of copper and why it’s in the recipe anyway...

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I was doing nothing different to most, I had 2 5l containers lit by LEDs, every week or so I’d decant half of one container to use, top up with salt water add 1ml of F2. So each culture was running for 2 weeks before decanting... this ran continuously.. every few months I’d empty one of the containers and clean it thoroughly, then add the phyto back in and carry on...

Hmm, something seems a bit off with this. I would have assumed that the traces from the F/2 would have been long consumed by 2 weeks, or at least reduced to an amount that would make it neglible. I am not doubting your reporting of the events, but I am wondering if there may be another cause of the rise in copper. I recall posting about this possibility (dosing home cultured phyto bringing in traces) and I think the answer was that the quantities were miniscule.

I use Triton ICP testing, i saw an increase that has since dropped back but I cannot prove was 100% from the phytoplankton and F2 but I haven’t found or removed another source. I wonder if some brands of F2 have different levels of copper and why it’s in the recipe anyway...

The copper is in the F/2 growth medium as it is designed to provide all the elements required to grow marine algae.

A good explanation can be found in the PDF at f/2 Medium

This PDF also provides us the ingredients and amounts of those ingredients in the F/2 solution. If I am interpreting the mixing process correctly, the Copper Sulfate in the trace element solution which gets added in a small amount (1ml / 1L of F/2), contains 1ml of a solution containing 9.8 g/L of copper sulfate. So that works out to 9.8g/L divided by 1000 and then 1ml of that gets used, so that gets divided by 1000 again, and finally you are using 1 ml of the F/2 per 5L (and using 2.5L of that). So that brings another division by 1000 and then division by 2.

So for you to see a rise to 13ug/L would require a lot of dosing of phyto. I maybe interpretting the F/2 formula wrong, but it does not strike me as possible to be originating from the phyto additions. Unless your F/2 had some serious issues with it's levels of copper.

Perhaps some chemistry inclinded folks could check my conclusion as I see this as:

9.8g/L ÷ 1000 ÷ 1000 ÷ 1000 = 0.0000000098 g/L (for a single addition of F/2 to the culture)

As you are using 2.5L of the 5L containing the F/2, the above result would get divided in 2 as well.

So I don't see how the 13ug/L the ICP reported could have been coming from the F/2.

Edit: I just realized I was using a different unit representation than Mortie and Trident. With this in mind, the above calcs come in at 0.0098 ug/L.

 

[Mortie31]

Hmm, something seems a bit off with this. I would have assumed that the traces from the F/2 would have been long consumed by 2 weeks, or at least reduced to an amount that would make it neglible. I am not doubting your reporting of the events, but I am wondering if there may be another cause of the rise in copper. I recall posting about this possibility (dosing home cultured phyto bringing in traces) and I think the answer was that the quantities were miniscule.



The copper is in the F/2 growth medium as it is designed to provide all the elements required to grow marine algae.

A good explanation can be found in the PDF at f/2 Medium

This PDF also provides us the ingredients and amounts of those ingredients in the F/2 solution. If I am interpreting the mixing process correctly, the Copper Sulfate in the trace element solution which gets added in a small amount (1ml / 1L of F/2), contains 1ml of a solution containing 9.8 g/L of copper sulfate. So that works out to 9.8g/L divided by 1000 and then 1ml of that gets used, so that gets divided by 1000 again, and finally you are using 1 ml of the F/2 per 5L (and using 2.5L of that). So that brings another division by 1000 and then division by 2.

So for you to see a rise to 13ug/L would require a lot of dosing of phyto. I maybe interpretting the F/2 formula wrong, but it does not strike me as possible to be originating from the phyto additions. Unless your F/2 had some serious issues with it's levels of copper.

Perhaps some chemistry inclinded folks could check my conclusion as I see this as:

9.8g/L ÷ 1000 ÷ 1000 ÷ 1000 = 0.0000000098 g/L (for a single addition of F/2 to the culture)

As you are using 2.5L of the 5L containing the F/2, the above result would get divided in 2 as well.

So I don't see how the 13ug/L the ICP reported could have been coming from the F/2.

Edit: I just realized I was using a different unit representation than Mortie and Trident. With this in mind, the above calcs come in at 0.0098 ug/L.

Hi Dennis, thanks for your answer, I’m not sure if the F2 is responsible or not, as most things in this hobby we have dozens of things happening and it’s difficult to assign direct cause and effect. Something to add; over 6 months I added 2.5L/ week then that would equate to roughly 65L added and bearing in mind I don’t do water changes so any residual left over from not being used during growing would be added to my tank... I’m not ruling out other possible sources, but Since I stopped dosing phyto I’ve seen my copper levels in my tank fall... this is the only thing I’ve changed apart from reducing my Vodka dosing as I’ve started a nitrate reactor..

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Hi Dennis, thanks for your answer, I’m not sure if the F2 is responsible or not, as most things in this hobby we have dozens of things happening and it’s difficult to assign direct cause and effect. Something to add; over 6 months I added 2.5L/ week then that would equate to roughly 65L added and bearing in mind I don’t do water changes so any residual left over from not being used during growing would be added to my tank... I’m not ruling out other possible sources, but Since I stopped dosing phyto I’ve seen my copper levels in my tank fall... this is the only thing I’ve changed apart from reducing my Vodka dosing as I’ve started a nitrate reactor..

My pleasure Mortie. However my analysis of the possibility of copper accumulating from phyto dosing is like a pebble in my shoe. I would really like to know if this is a distinct possibility or a non-issue based on F/2 medium being used during the culture. Hopefully @Randy Holmes-Farley can have a look and say I am off base, or at least if I am still on the field, or a swing and a miss.

Also, if you are not doing water changes, were you doing any export of nutrients? Because all the trace elements, both in the phyto water and in the actual phyto itself would accumulate if not exported or bound up in biomass.

 

[Mortie31]

My pleasure Mortie. However my analysis of the possibility of copper accumulating from phyto dosing is like a pebble in my show. I would really like to know if this is a distinct possibility or a non-issue based on F/2 medium being used during the culture. Hopefully @Randy Holmes-Farley can have a look and say I am off base, or at least if I am still on the field.

Also, if you are not doing water changes, were you doing any export of nutrients? Because all the trace elements, both in the phyto water and in the actual phyto itself would accumulate if not exported or bound up in biomass.

I’m also interested in finding out if accumulation is possible, as I stopped dosing phyto because of it, my nutrient export is live rock, skimming, algae bed and LaCl if my PO4 starts to creep up to much. I’ve been following Dana’s thread on phyto to control nutrients it would be interesting to see if he sees any copper levels as he’s dosing quite a high amount as well

 

[sixty_reefer]

I believe f2 has different variations to the recipe. And hard to know what’s exactly in it as most tend do modify the original recipe to their benefits. I only used miracle grow as I find it more stable and got less chances to cause a culture crash. I believe nearly 2 years with the same culture and without cleaning the vessels is a good start. My copper was always 0 on my icp to. Even though it did well I’d like a more natural way to keep the culture going.

 

[Dan buretta]

So I’ve been running my culture for a few weeks now. It was looking good until today. I increased from 5ml every 2 hours to 3ml per hour 2 days ago. The phyto looks weak and the rotifers look like they consumed all the phyto. I’m going to add f2 directly to the phyto culture today to get it going again and then adjust the amount of f2 in my fresh saltwater vessel to see if I can get this right. I believe miracle grow would be better here because I know there is a reason f2 is in 2 separate containers when you buy it and I believe they interact with eachother and maybe that’s what is happening before they get to the phyto culture.