427HISS
2500 Club Member
First of all, let's play nice with each others, no need to be idiots by hurting each others opinion of lighting types & fixtures. Ok !
Alright,... When we (wife and I) started reefing in the 90's a lot of us used MH , the problem was cost, heat produced enough that we required to add chillers. Not all, but most. So we bought 4 VHO's with a total of 440 watts from Icecap with a ballast a dimmer. I created a in-wall 75g mixed reef with a home made a canopy and a pulley system so I could raise and lower it for changes in the tank, water changes etc. We messed around with different spectrums, but four 50/50's was the best for us and the corals. The tank was beautiful.
Then we wanted to experience the MH, so we started with using two of the VHO's and a 175w MH. I never needed a fan before, but this combo needed a 12".
We tried using the two VHO's and changing up to a 250 watt MH, but even after using two fans, this combo was not enough to cool the water. We could have tried going with different combo's of this and that, but we gave up on the halide and more than likely that we'd need a chiller. I had a friend that had a beautiful 180g packed with mostly stories. He went to Co. to ski, came back and was shocked,...the chiller stopped, so all the fish and corals were fried. He hasn't had
a tank since. Still feel bad for him and the life hood.
Ok more to my point. We sold out to have a different hobby in 2001, but returned to reefing a few years ago, and their were a lot of changes, especially in lighting. I bought into the LED's system over a 29g BioCube. My wife did not like it, but I was willing to try it out for 6 months.
There's pro's and con's of every type of light and systems, but for now, we don't care for LED. For those of the LED lovers, please don't be rude, as this is just about what each type lighting can be best for,....the coral's ! Not for our human eye liking. The light ramping up and down is wonderful, but things like a lighting show, ah,...never, it's a gimmick for children. I hate the "70's disco ball effect". The low heat and longevity are fantastic. We now are going with a T-5 system over our in- wall 125g mix reef, but we are keeping with a small experimental coral tank with just SPS, LPS's using one LED fixture, maybe one top rated rated and 100 buck eBay to record the difference between them. I'm NOT,...lol, scientist. Nope, not even close, nor a highly knowledgeable reefer, so bare with me.
Below, I will quote some conversations I have with others about my subject on a different website forum. I'm basically wanting to discuss what light spectrum we have from the sun for us and all other life on the surface of earth, versus life below under the surface, in this case, coral reefs and what corals need rather than what we,...like colors in our tanks. For a few years now, people seen to like almost 100% blue lights over the beautiful, zoa corals. I may be wrong, but don't they need a full spectrum lighting rather than mostly blue ? I understand that red spectrum looses from the surface on the oceans, changes as every foot down to darkness, but in our tanks, what are the coral's needs over "hey, them zoa's look great with very high blue's "! I've seen many,....tanks that are so full of the blue that not much else shows up, so aren't those people choosing to their licking rather than what corals need ?
Ok, the quoted conversation with more to come.
"For coral growth, and colors for them and fish, I still like the M/H over LED's. And, fluorescent are also great. The 440w VHO are a beautiful light, and can support any SPS coral. The LED's have many options vs others.
oh yeah. MH still gives you great growth if not the best growth. But what I was saying is that MH isn't the only options to grow corals. But for coloration LED's have changed the game. But if I had it my way (which I don't by the way) I would run a combo for sure.
There's few un-likes regarding LED's, but they have their issues. Number one is the incredible cost ! When it takes $800 to buy a light that only covers 2' x 2' area, that is crazy. Yes, the extras are good, like the sun up to dawn is wonderful, the par is good, the lighting is stupid. lol... Back in the 90's I used 4 VHO's with some LPS's SPS's , fish crabs etc, and they grew nicely with great color and the electric bill was fine, and no fan. Then out of curiosity I tried 250 M/H and two actinic blue tubes. I did not see any changes in the colors and health. But, I needed a chiller instead of a fan and the electric bill was too much. The one thing is, the LED's do not heat too much and the programming is nice, but not needed. The colors can be adjusted, and they will last for years vs others need replacement every year. I just don't think the LED's are there,...yet, but soon. I blame the cost directly on the manufacturer's, but secondly on us, because were supporting their price ! They will not lower their pricing until we say that price is too high. Most of them are laughing at us sitting behind their leather chairs. I was a business man until I was too sick and retired, so I know a thing or to of hoe it's works, so if any manufacturers come here and say they barely make any money on their LED systems, I'll whoop you with knowledge on costs. Then I'll be laughing behind my thrown. lol.... I actually on my bar stool.
yeah well if someone buys lights and spend that kind of money that's their problem. But I've seen MH and t5 fixtures go for 4000-10000. And you have to replace bulbs every 6 months. Which if you want to replace like for like in those expensive fixtures you're spending 1000+ a year. Plus the cost of power. So now tell me that LEDs don't make sense. Also the cost and tech of LEDs have come along way in the past few years. You don't have to spend 800 per light anymore to grow good corals. Also if you're smart enough (like myself) you can build LED lights that out perform most LED lights on the market. For next to nothing and they still look good enough to fool 95% of reefers that they aren't store bought. So yeah. But most reefers are so "hands off" nowadays that nobody wants to take the time to do anything like that. Or take the time to do actual research (not saying you are any of these) it's a problem in this hobby that just keeps getting worse.
I agree that LED's have come around, not like five years ago. I'm not sure about the spectrum they put out, as corals are changing colors. I don't know in the long run if it's harmful or not ? Is the color spectrum of zooxanthellae control the amount of it receives and final color of the corals, especially SPS's ? I haven't been in the hobby long, but does the spectrum of the sun change in our reef lighting ? With the amount of color option's we have with LED's, can't the corals loose what's needed, just because we like the tank a certain spectrum, like adding too much of one or more colors ? Their seems to be changes in people's lighting from just a few years ago. The zoa's have been very popular and some hobbyist lighting is most all blue, so much that it's hard to see anything else in the tank. The zoas colors are extremely,...fluorescence to me.
good questions and let me do my best to explain it all. LEDs do not harm corals. The colors you see are more of the corals true color. Think of it this way. The color a coral changes to is like sunscreen on us. The violet/UV spectrums (420-395nm) used in LEDs is what causes the corals to color up, if used in moderation. The royal blue spectum (445-450nm) the zooxanthellae uses the most of. The cyan spectrum (480-490nn) is used by for carotenoid. The deep red spectrum (655-660) is used by the zooxanthellae. Now naturally in the ocean the water itself filters out many spectrums infrared first at like 2 meters, the the red spectrum, then the UV spectrum, then violet, then green spectrum. The last to be filtered out is the blue spectrums. This all happens fairly close to the waters surface. So when you get down to where many of the corals we have in our tanks naturally live. They don't get a lot of anything other then the blue to cyan spectrums. With that being said yes what you see at the hobbyist level is a lot of people running all blues or close to all blues. But the growers have been using this method for a very long time. When I ran t5's I ran all blue or ultra blues (actinic blue or violet blue) I didn't run any white bulbs what so ever. The reason we're seeing so many crazy colored corals nowadays is because those corals that were living down so deep that they got little to no UV/Violet are now being given lots of it. But to keep those colors, you have to keep giving them that amount of UV/Violet. So yes there are a ton of corals that fluoresce. Its called bio-fluorescence. It is really really cool. But it is the blue spectrum (440-460nm) that causes the reaction. Its beautiful to most people. Now if you add to much of certain colors yes you can damage the corals. But most of those spectrums aren't found in our reef lights. The main reason for the change of people's pics over the last year or two is due to camera filters available to the general public. That's if you don't know how to change the camera settings. When I take pics of corals for sale I'll either do it under white lights or I'll do side by side pics of blue and white lighting. I've done extensive research on what spectrums make corals grow the best and what make them color up right. So you kinda stumbled upon the right guy to ask questions to.
Oh and to add to that just a little. The zooxanthellae doesn't give the coral its color. Zooxanthellae is actually brownish. So when you see, or have, a coral that's growing well but is all brown its because the coral hasn't received the correct amount, if any, of UV/Violet.
END of conversation for now. I had surgery yesterday, so I need to go to bed. (Patty said) lol Good night....
Alright,... When we (wife and I) started reefing in the 90's a lot of us used MH , the problem was cost, heat produced enough that we required to add chillers. Not all, but most. So we bought 4 VHO's with a total of 440 watts from Icecap with a ballast a dimmer. I created a in-wall 75g mixed reef with a home made a canopy and a pulley system so I could raise and lower it for changes in the tank, water changes etc. We messed around with different spectrums, but four 50/50's was the best for us and the corals. The tank was beautiful.
Then we wanted to experience the MH, so we started with using two of the VHO's and a 175w MH. I never needed a fan before, but this combo needed a 12".
We tried using the two VHO's and changing up to a 250 watt MH, but even after using two fans, this combo was not enough to cool the water. We could have tried going with different combo's of this and that, but we gave up on the halide and more than likely that we'd need a chiller. I had a friend that had a beautiful 180g packed with mostly stories. He went to Co. to ski, came back and was shocked,...the chiller stopped, so all the fish and corals were fried. He hasn't had
a tank since. Still feel bad for him and the life hood.
Ok more to my point. We sold out to have a different hobby in 2001, but returned to reefing a few years ago, and their were a lot of changes, especially in lighting. I bought into the LED's system over a 29g BioCube. My wife did not like it, but I was willing to try it out for 6 months.
There's pro's and con's of every type of light and systems, but for now, we don't care for LED. For those of the LED lovers, please don't be rude, as this is just about what each type lighting can be best for,....the coral's ! Not for our human eye liking. The light ramping up and down is wonderful, but things like a lighting show, ah,...never, it's a gimmick for children. I hate the "70's disco ball effect". The low heat and longevity are fantastic. We now are going with a T-5 system over our in- wall 125g mix reef, but we are keeping with a small experimental coral tank with just SPS, LPS's using one LED fixture, maybe one top rated rated and 100 buck eBay to record the difference between them. I'm NOT,...lol, scientist. Nope, not even close, nor a highly knowledgeable reefer, so bare with me.
Below, I will quote some conversations I have with others about my subject on a different website forum. I'm basically wanting to discuss what light spectrum we have from the sun for us and all other life on the surface of earth, versus life below under the surface, in this case, coral reefs and what corals need rather than what we,...like colors in our tanks. For a few years now, people seen to like almost 100% blue lights over the beautiful, zoa corals. I may be wrong, but don't they need a full spectrum lighting rather than mostly blue ? I understand that red spectrum looses from the surface on the oceans, changes as every foot down to darkness, but in our tanks, what are the coral's needs over "hey, them zoa's look great with very high blue's "! I've seen many,....tanks that are so full of the blue that not much else shows up, so aren't those people choosing to their licking rather than what corals need ?
Ok, the quoted conversation with more to come.
"For coral growth, and colors for them and fish, I still like the M/H over LED's. And, fluorescent are also great. The 440w VHO are a beautiful light, and can support any SPS coral. The LED's have many options vs others.
oh yeah. MH still gives you great growth if not the best growth. But what I was saying is that MH isn't the only options to grow corals. But for coloration LED's have changed the game. But if I had it my way (which I don't by the way) I would run a combo for sure.
There's few un-likes regarding LED's, but they have their issues. Number one is the incredible cost ! When it takes $800 to buy a light that only covers 2' x 2' area, that is crazy. Yes, the extras are good, like the sun up to dawn is wonderful, the par is good, the lighting is stupid. lol... Back in the 90's I used 4 VHO's with some LPS's SPS's , fish crabs etc, and they grew nicely with great color and the electric bill was fine, and no fan. Then out of curiosity I tried 250 M/H and two actinic blue tubes. I did not see any changes in the colors and health. But, I needed a chiller instead of a fan and the electric bill was too much. The one thing is, the LED's do not heat too much and the programming is nice, but not needed. The colors can be adjusted, and they will last for years vs others need replacement every year. I just don't think the LED's are there,...yet, but soon. I blame the cost directly on the manufacturer's, but secondly on us, because were supporting their price ! They will not lower their pricing until we say that price is too high. Most of them are laughing at us sitting behind their leather chairs. I was a business man until I was too sick and retired, so I know a thing or to of hoe it's works, so if any manufacturers come here and say they barely make any money on their LED systems, I'll whoop you with knowledge on costs. Then I'll be laughing behind my thrown. lol.... I actually on my bar stool.
yeah well if someone buys lights and spend that kind of money that's their problem. But I've seen MH and t5 fixtures go for 4000-10000. And you have to replace bulbs every 6 months. Which if you want to replace like for like in those expensive fixtures you're spending 1000+ a year. Plus the cost of power. So now tell me that LEDs don't make sense. Also the cost and tech of LEDs have come along way in the past few years. You don't have to spend 800 per light anymore to grow good corals. Also if you're smart enough (like myself) you can build LED lights that out perform most LED lights on the market. For next to nothing and they still look good enough to fool 95% of reefers that they aren't store bought. So yeah. But most reefers are so "hands off" nowadays that nobody wants to take the time to do anything like that. Or take the time to do actual research (not saying you are any of these) it's a problem in this hobby that just keeps getting worse.
I agree that LED's have come around, not like five years ago. I'm not sure about the spectrum they put out, as corals are changing colors. I don't know in the long run if it's harmful or not ? Is the color spectrum of zooxanthellae control the amount of it receives and final color of the corals, especially SPS's ? I haven't been in the hobby long, but does the spectrum of the sun change in our reef lighting ? With the amount of color option's we have with LED's, can't the corals loose what's needed, just because we like the tank a certain spectrum, like adding too much of one or more colors ? Their seems to be changes in people's lighting from just a few years ago. The zoa's have been very popular and some hobbyist lighting is most all blue, so much that it's hard to see anything else in the tank. The zoas colors are extremely,...fluorescence to me.
good questions and let me do my best to explain it all. LEDs do not harm corals. The colors you see are more of the corals true color. Think of it this way. The color a coral changes to is like sunscreen on us. The violet/UV spectrums (420-395nm) used in LEDs is what causes the corals to color up, if used in moderation. The royal blue spectum (445-450nm) the zooxanthellae uses the most of. The cyan spectrum (480-490nn) is used by for carotenoid. The deep red spectrum (655-660) is used by the zooxanthellae. Now naturally in the ocean the water itself filters out many spectrums infrared first at like 2 meters, the the red spectrum, then the UV spectrum, then violet, then green spectrum. The last to be filtered out is the blue spectrums. This all happens fairly close to the waters surface. So when you get down to where many of the corals we have in our tanks naturally live. They don't get a lot of anything other then the blue to cyan spectrums. With that being said yes what you see at the hobbyist level is a lot of people running all blues or close to all blues. But the growers have been using this method for a very long time. When I ran t5's I ran all blue or ultra blues (actinic blue or violet blue) I didn't run any white bulbs what so ever. The reason we're seeing so many crazy colored corals nowadays is because those corals that were living down so deep that they got little to no UV/Violet are now being given lots of it. But to keep those colors, you have to keep giving them that amount of UV/Violet. So yes there are a ton of corals that fluoresce. Its called bio-fluorescence. It is really really cool. But it is the blue spectrum (440-460nm) that causes the reaction. Its beautiful to most people. Now if you add to much of certain colors yes you can damage the corals. But most of those spectrums aren't found in our reef lights. The main reason for the change of people's pics over the last year or two is due to camera filters available to the general public. That's if you don't know how to change the camera settings. When I take pics of corals for sale I'll either do it under white lights or I'll do side by side pics of blue and white lighting. I've done extensive research on what spectrums make corals grow the best and what make them color up right. So you kinda stumbled upon the right guy to ask questions to.
Oh and to add to that just a little. The zooxanthellae doesn't give the coral its color. Zooxanthellae is actually brownish. So when you see, or have, a coral that's growing well but is all brown its because the coral hasn't received the correct amount, if any, of UV/Violet.
END of conversation for now. I had surgery yesterday, so I need to go to bed. (Patty said) lol Good night....
