Cinnamon clown with spots during copper treatment

bshake · Mar 8, 2024

vetteguy53081 said:
That is correct. These are mucus cones which contain ich and treatment mentioned needs to be continued to offer best chance of eradication. Assure water quality is good as skin irritation will support these mucus cones

Awesome thank you for the information

Jay Hemdal · Mar 8, 2024

bshake said:
From my understanding is that Ich can’t reinfect in copper. all my fish have been in a QT with copper power above therapeutic of 2.3-2.45 PPM since January 31 so over 30 days already. I check with a Hanna copper checker every other day and copper has been stable and the results have been consistent within 0.05 between tests. Every time my fish has had ich in the past I just saw salt like dots on the body. These are not just dots they look like they have a tail a bit elongated or like a comma.

No - copper power and coppersafe are mild, but they are very slow to work. I've seen active ich infections in treated tanks for 10 to 14 days after the copper had reached a full dose. However, not 30 days like in this case.

Just checking - you aren't seeing any flashing/scratching with the clownfish, right? I just want to rule out flukes.

Since you are confident that the copper treatment is appropriate, then idiopathic mucus plugs would be the next logical conclusion. I've seen that in hepatus tangs during copper treatments, but not clownfish. Still, there isn't much else it could be. No treatment for this other than to reduce the copper levels and wait.

Jay

bshake · Mar 8, 2024

Jay Hemdal said:
No - copper power and coppersafe are mild, but they are very slow to work. I've seen active ich infections in treated tanks for 10 to 14 days after the copper had reached a full dose. However, not 30 days like in this case.

Just checking - you aren't seeing any flashing/scratching with the clownfish, right? I just want to rule out flukes.

Since you are confident that the copper treatment is appropriate, then idiopathic mucus plugs would be the next logical conclusion. I've seen that in hepatus tangs during copper treatments, but not clownfish. Still, there isn't much else it could be. No treatment for this other than to reduce the copper levels and wait.

Jay

I just retested the copper in the tank and it’s at 2.48ppm copper power tested with Hanna copper checker. So it’s been 5 days since those spots have been on his body and they don’t seem to have fall off which is typical with Ich from my understanding.

Yesterday and today I’m noticing him scratching a little on a PVC pipe in the QT tank. If it is flukes should I dose the QT with general cure? Or prazi? Or maybe give him a fresh water bath?

Jay Hemdal · Mar 8, 2024

bshake said:
I just retested the copper in the tank and it’s at 2.48ppm copper power tested with Hanna copper checker. So it’s been 5 days since those spots have been on his body and they don’t seem to have fall off which is typical with Ich from my understanding.

Yesterday and today I’m noticing him scratching a little on a PVC pipe in the QT tank. If it is flukes should I dose the QT with general cure? Or prazi? Or maybe give him a fresh water bath?

A FW dip won't cure the issue if it is flukes.

General Cure or Prazipro can be used, but you should take the copper level down to about 25% before doing that (so 0.6 ppm or below)

bshake · Mar 8, 2024

Jay Hemdal said:
A FW dip won't cure the issue if it is flukes.

General Cure or Prazipro can be used, but you should take the copper level down to about 25% before doing that (so 0.6 ppm or below)

I have both prazi and general cure which would you recommend to use that would be most effective? And general cure to be dosed as recommended on the packaging?

MnFish1 · Mar 8, 2024

Jay Hemdal said:
No - copper power and coppersafe are mild, but they are very slow to work. I've seen active ich infections in treated tanks for 10 to 14 days after the copper had reached a full dose. However, not 30 days like in this case.

Just checking - you aren't seeing any flashing/scratching with the clownfish, right? I just want to rule out flukes.

Since you are confident that the copper treatment is appropriate, then idiopathic mucus plugs would be the next logical conclusion. I've seen that in hepatus tangs during copper treatments, but not clownfish. Still, there isn't much else it could be. No treatment for this other than to reduce the copper levels and wait.

Jay

I wondered if a FW dip would help in this situation. IMHO - different fish can manifest the same parasite in different ways - depending on their own immune system, etc. For example - some who have a strong reaction may show more 'cones'/mucus. I think the answer lies in my original post - as to why/how ich could still be present as well. Another point, sometimes fish can have ich and show very little or no 'spots'. Others can have larger spots, etc etc.

bshake · Mar 8, 2024

MnFish1 said:
I wondered if a FW dip would help in this situation. IMHO - different fish can manifest the same parasite in different ways - depending on their own immune system, etc. For example - some who have a strong reaction may show more 'cones'/mucus. I think the answer lies in my original post - as to why/how ich could still be present as well. Another point, sometimes fish can have ich and show very little or no 'spots'. Others can have larger spots, etc etc.

I’m as confused as ever with this fish because literally it’s been in copper at about 2.4 since the last week of January and just this Monday these spots started showing up but they haven’t dropped off yet which is so annoying

MnFish1 · Mar 8, 2024

bshake said:
I’m as confused as ever with this fish because literally it’s been in copper at about 2.4 since the last week of January and just this Monday these spots started showing up but they haven’t dropped off yet which is so annoying

Yes - I know it's confusing and difficult - sorry about that!!. There are a couple options: 1. It's not Ich but mucus cones alone. 2. Its mucus cones which have formed due to skin irritation from prior ich - some fish can react to copper with mucus overproduction as well. 3. Though you thought your copper levels were always above 2.3 - it was not - and if it drops below for lets say a day - you often have to restart the clock. 4. If #3 is true - you either should verify your test kit with another one - or at an LFS, and test more often. 5. As I mentioned a couple days ago - Just like with penicillin (which doesn't always cure strep throat) - it is possible that your stocking density is so high - that somehow fish are allowing multiplication (for example - the levels of CI in an infected tank (where all fish are sick are probably hundreds or thousands of times more concentrated than the ocean - or a tank where there are 1 or 2 spots that seem to come and go every several months.

You could also consider hypo salinity in a separate tank. There is a protocol for that in the stickies at the top of the forum. Invertebrates need to be separated. Again - this is assuming its some version of Ich - and not just scarring.

Jay Hemdal · Mar 8, 2024

bshake said:
I have both prazi and general cure which would you recommend to use that would be most effective? And general cure to be dosed as recommended on the packaging?

Personally, I like general cure, but it is not really invert safe, so for display tanks, I usually tell people to use Prazipro. In your case, no inverts, so I’d use the GC. Dose it for the tank’s actual volume, but redose 8 days later, not the 48 hours that they suggest.

NanoNana · Mar 9, 2024

I know this thread is about treating itch. But the human medical person in me forces me remind everyone that the carcinogenic properties of furazone are staggering. PLEASE take proper precautions if you must handle it and I would highly recommend any other broad spectrum antibiotic than nitrofurazon. I have not seen studies done specifically on fish but tumors are not uncommon in lab mammals. Boggles my brain how this stuff has so many FDA warnings in every form of husbandry except aquatics.

bshake · Mar 9, 2024

New question now about my purple Tang. Different QT tank in a different room has spots on him but they’re mainly around his gills and eye brows also mouth with few spots on the body. Same as the clown he’s been in a qt with copper power at 2.4 PPM for the past 35 days

bshake · Mar 9, 2024

bshake said:
New question now about my purple Tang. Different QT tank in a different room has spots on him but they’re mainly around his gills and eye brows also mouth with few spots on the body. Same as the clown he’s been in a qt with copper power at 2.4 PPM for the past 35 days

Can these be flukes as well?

Jay Hemdal · Mar 9, 2024

bshake said:
New question now about my purple Tang. Different QT tank in a different room has spots on him but they’re mainly around his gills and eye brows also mouth with few spots on the body. Same as the clown he’s been in a qt with copper power at 2.4 PPM for the past 35 days

Those spots are more what I would call mucus plugs - they are in a pattern. It isn't flukes, the fish *could* have flukes, but those are not a sign of them.,....

bshake · Mar 9, 2024

Jay Hemdal said:
Those spots are more what I would call mucus plugs - they are in a pattern. It isn't flukes, the fish *could* have flukes, but those are not a sign of them.,....

Thank you Jay. Probably from the prolonged exposure to copper I’m assuming?