Challenges balancing the sump and plumbing

[TheMimic]

Hello everyone!

I have a setup question. I'm running a 75 gallon display tank with about 20 gallon sump. The sump has three chambers, felt filter sock and skimmer in the first, nothing but live sand in the second for now, and two adjustable speed circulation pumps in the third chamber (one for circulation and a smaller one for the UV sterilizer). The sump was DIY project completed by the rig's previous owner, nothing fancy but gets the job done.

The plumbing from the overflow has a valve on it to adjust speed of the siphon - that is always a fun game trying to find the right speed to match the speed of the pump (almost not liking the adjustable speed pump).

For a little over a week, since my last water change, everything is running smoothly. Every couple days the ATO kicks on and tops off as expected. However, today, I came into my office and the reservoir was almost empty with the ATO pump running dry, and my display tank was just shy of overflowing (worth noting, I checked on my tank and livestock not even 3 hours earlier and all was well). The first two chambers of the sump were at normal level, but the third was low enough to almost expose the pumps. This is not the first time this happened.

The first time it happened, I was able to balance the flow and pump by topping off the water (and adjusting m y ATO to not wait so long) and playing with the valve/pump speed a little until it leveled. The last time it happened, I suspect my sock was clogging because I've been feeding more frozen food than flakes and I'm just adjusting how often to change it; I changed it, did a water change, and its been fine since.

Does anyone have any ideas why my balanced system will randomly go out of whack and almost drain the third chamber? My theory of the water levels didn't pan out given my ATO reservoir emptied into the sump and the display tank nearly overflowed. My sock is only a couple days in now, so I don't think it was a clog causing the issue. Is maybe my circulation pump on the fritz and randomly speeding up even when the controller hasn't changed? I just can't wrap my brain around the cause and how to prevent it. I'm a bit in the coming months, and I'm worried it'll flood my house while I'm not here. Not to mention it just has to be throwing off my salinity and other levels. I'm doing another water change today, so I suspect it'll be good for a bit, but I really have to figure this out before leaving it unattended for more than 3 hours.

All help is appreciated, thanks!

 

[KStatefan]

Hello everyone!



The plumbing from the overflow has a valve on it to adjust speed of the siphon - that is always a fun game trying to find the right speed to match the speed of the pump (almost not liking the adjustable speed pump).

Trying to match drain flow to pump flow will almost always fail. The drain needs to be able to handle some fluctuations in flow.

 

[TheMimic]

Thanks. I'm going to do some more research in that space now.

In your opinion, is the valve useless on the drain flow during operation? Should I just crank it open and balance flow with the adjustable pump speed?

With fluctuations in I feel like that really renders my ATO more of a threat than help. I don't really lose that much to evaporation

 

[AnomMatty]

Trying to match drain flow to pump flow will almost always fail. The drain needs to be able to handle some fluctuations in flow.

I tinkered with mine until I found a sweet spot where it barely utilizes the emergency drain on the higher end of flow fluctuations, and stays where I want it. I spent a good deal of time trying to completely tune it through the valve on the drain. The trick is it isn't going to be perfect. Presuming you're trying to get as quiet as possible, you have to find the spot where the valve and return pump speed kind of sync.

Without a valve, you're going to have a lot more noise, but simplicity is worth the noise to some.

 

[AnomMatty]

Thanks. I'm going to do some more research in that space now.

In your opinion, is the valve useless on the drain flow during operation? Should I just crank it open and balance flow with the adjustable pump speed?

With fluctuations in I feel like that really renders my ATO more of a threat than help. I don't really lose that much to evaporation

ATO shouldn't be a threat unless there's a possibility of the fluctuations moving water level at the sensor a lot, which would make me reconsider where the sensor is placed.

 

[twentyleagues]

With an adjustable pump set your pump to the desired gph that you want making sure to not overwhelm the overflow. Then dial in your drain to create the siphon keeping your emergency drain empty but with in half an inch or so of flowing into the pipe. Your pump will have slight loss of flow when dirty and the controller may increase voltage to maintain the desired level of out put ( I have had this happen on a few of my dc controllable pumps). You should never overflow the tank the drains should be able to handle the flow unless your pump is putting out too much for the overflow to handle. If set up as above you will notice flow into the emergency drain in the event the pump has a slight increase or if it has a decrease the emergency drain will be further out of the water than where you set it. Trying to match adjustable pump and siphon drain by adjusting both is folly.

 

[Greybeard]

Trying to balance pump and overflow is a good way to end up with a huge mess. Don't do it.

Overflow should be able to handle WAY MORE volume than the pump is capable of moving. I generally shoot for double the pump's capacity. 1000 gph pump, I want 2000 gph capable overflow.

There are many overflow designs. The 'old school' Durso method works, but IMHO, it's been far surpassed by the newer multi-tube overflow designs, Herbie and BeAnAnimal types. Both incorporate an 'Emergency' tube that is mostly unused, except in the event it's needed. I'll never assemble another Durso system, though I used them for decades. Too easy to have a problem, and when they go wrong, it's a big problem.

BRS has a pretty good page showing the three main types of overflow:

Overflow Boxes and Drain Styles - Durso, Herbie, and Bean Animal

Decide which of the three most common types of drains and overflow boxes is right for you and your tank.

www.bulkreefsupply.com

What sort of overflow are you using?

If you've got a 'reef ready' tank with the normal Durso style overflow, it's fairly trivial to replumb it as a Herbie style, turning the existing return line into your 2nd drain, and just run the return over the rim of the aquarium. I've done it, it works fine.

 

[TheMimic]

I love the answers so far, and I think you nailed an important detail with what type. This one is a Durso style reef ready tank. It is a bit of an older setup the previous owner modified with an anti-siphon in case of pump failure, but yeah, missing the emergency in case of the pump returning too much.

Re-plumbing that to be an emergency drain will help all the other answers line up - I'll just have to figure out how to shorten the existing drain without draining the whole tank if I can. May not fix the underlying issue, but at least I can leave it unattended and not worry about flooding. Then I can dial in and adjust sensor locations like everyone else mentioned. Thanks all!

 

[KStatefan]

Without a valve, you're going to have a lot more noise, but simplicity is worth the noise to some.

But with a valve all you do is increase the chance of a failure.

 

[AnomMatty]

But with a valve all you do is increase the chance of a failure.

Which there are avenues to mitigate. Running a sump increases the chance of failure. It's all a balance of what you are comfortable with doing to meet the goals you wish to achieve. Some people run valves, some don't. Some run sumps, some don't.

Just giving a viewpoint.

 

[Greybeard]

Just some old photos I came up with... the upper and lower Herbie style conversion on my old 60g cube. Worked great. Nice and quiet, dead reliable.

 

[KStatefan]

Which there are avenues to mitigate. Running a sump increases the chance of failure. It's all a balance of what you are comfortable with doing to meet the goals you wish to achieve. Some people run valves, some don't. Some run sumps, some don't.

Just giving a viewpoint.

That is fine but in my opinion running a valve in a single drain system is a mistake.

 

[TheMimic]

Nice! I assume you had to drain the tank to complete it? Thinking through the logistics, if I do have to shorten my drain pipe, that'll have to come out to do it. I could re-plumb during a large water change.

 

[AnomMatty]

That is fine but in my opinion running a valve in a single drain system is a mistake.

I can't think of an instance where I'd be comfortable running a single drain. To each his own though.

 

[twentyleagues]

That is fine but in my opinion running a valve in a single drain system is a mistake.

This is absolutely true.

But with a valve all you do is increase the chance of a failure.

I was confused by this at first.
And then I realized the op never said actually what kind of system they were running. I would assume (yup that) if you put a valve on the drain it is at the very least a herbie style system. Guess I was definitely showed what assuming does once again.

 

[TheMimic]

Yeah, the single drain was just how I acquired it. I received an established tank with a couple clowns and all the associated gear for a price you just couldn't pass up. When I set up my 125 Gallon tank, I promise it won't be a single drain.

 

[KStatefan]

I can't think of an instance where I'd be comfortable running a single drain. To each his own though.

I am confused. The OP has a single drain

 

[TheMimic]

This is absolutely true.

I was confused by this at first.
And then I realized the op never said actually what kind of system they were running. I would assume (yup that) if you put a valve on the drain it is at the very least a herbie style system. Guess I was definitely showed what assuming does once again.

Yep. My bad! Sorry for leaving that out and causing confusion. Didn't think of it as an issue to the underlying cause, but definitely something I need to address for emergencies.

 

[AnomMatty]

I am confused. The OP has a single drain

I can give my opinion on valves and not be a fan of how his plumbing is setup? I'm sure function/adjustment of a valve varies having a single vs multiple drains, but at it's core it's the same concept and end goal. I can also see the benefit to having one on a single drain system, especially if he is trying to silence the system as much as possible. I do my best to not limit my application of suggestion/knowledge to a situation to what I prefer.

 

[KStatefan]

I can give my opinion on valves and not be a fan of how his plumbing is setup? I'm sure function/adjustment of a valve varies having a single vs multiple drains, but at it's core it's the same concept and end goal. I can also see the benefit to having one on a single drain system, especially if he is trying to silence the system as much as possible. I do my best to not limit my application of suggestion/knowledge to a situation to what I prefer.

I will stand with my original statement that you disagreed with and be done with this thread.